Author Topic: The PvP Optimization Thread  (Read 14960 times)

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Revulva

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The PvP Optimization Thread
« on: March 03, 2011, 11:25:34 AM »
PvP Optimization is the next big-ticket item on Team Robot's plate after we finish the mobile app. In preparation for that, we would like input from our users and the PvP community on what options would be most useful for this functionality. I'll kick this off with some questions off the top of my head. Based on the discussion, I will add more questions and update this post with the latest answers/features. When posting a reply, please provide more than anecdotal evidence! Math, links to sources, concrete examples, etc. will be the information that we can incorporate. Saying "gear 4 crit" doesn't help us much ;)

Warning: Team Robot's human members have much less PvP experience than PvE experience... some of these questions might seem "noob-ish". We apologize in advance and hope to learn a lot through discussion!

We know we have to provide a way to use the lower hit cap for PvP - so don't worry about that one ;)

1.) Is there a resilience rating that players generally shoot for? Does it vary by class, or by preference, or both?
2.) Do players gear differently for Arenas and BGs? If so, what is the difference? I assume this might be very class/spec-specific. Basically... do we need separate default settings for Arena/BG?
3.) How would stat weights for PvP be different than PvE? Could it be as simple as using PvE stat weights with a weight for resilience thrown in? Or, do we need to make modifications for certain classes/specs?
4.) Trinkets... how should we choose these? There is not a good way to "weight" the trinkets with on-use effects like a health boost or breaking snares. Are there general trinket combos that are "accepted," or is it more personal preference? On-use trinkets are better for burst, proc trinkets are better for overall damage, etc. Our latest thinking is to ignore trinkets for PvP optimization and have users simply select them manually... since there might not be any one "rule of thumb" to pick trinkets for people.
5.) Does anyone gem for stamina in PvP?
6.) Is spell penetration worth getting? I can figure out how much, but if someone lists it here before I get to it... I wouldn't complain ;)
7.) PvP specs. We would like to provide a list of common PvP specs for each class. If people want to list them here, that would be great. Otherwise I will simply look for high-rated players and copy their specs.

Those are just a few to start. My general strategy for anything that we don't have answered via feedback is to find high-rated players and just copy what they are doing. That, for obvious reasons, is not always the best approach to finding good information, though. In the world of PvE... there are quite a few players in top-ranking guilds that actually have sub-optimal gear setups, believe it or not! Skill > gear ;)
« Last Edit: March 03, 2011, 11:46:40 AM by Revulva »

Cynwise

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Re: The PvP Optimization Thread
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2011, 12:19:58 PM »
1) Since there is currently no cap or diminishing returns on Resilience, generally there's no set value. Most folks on my realm look at 2k as the absolute minimum for playing in anything rated, and 3k+ is generally accepted as "a good start."  So, I'd call this personal preference. Generally you stack as much of it as you can, along with your primary stat.

I believe there is a possibility that DR will be added to Resilience in 4.1, which would change this answer.

2) Players definitely spec differently for different kinds of fights, and gear may follow suit. Arenas allow you to spec knowing what your teammates will bring to the match, allowing you to take talents that complement them. Battlegrounds are more chaotic, requiring more independence and balance. World PvP is even more chaotic than BGs, though I don't think you'd spec that differently for them. (Would love to hear some wPvP experts chime in on this.)  There are also enchants and devices that have tremendous utility in regular Battlegrounds and World PvP which don't work in either Arenas or Rated Battlegrounds, or perhaps will work in Rated BGs but not Arenas.

I believe you need separate evaluations for Arena and BGs/World PvP, at a minimum.

3) You need to take into account several factors with stat weighting.  I'm going to talk about Warlocks, specifically, since they're my main class.

  • Spell Penetration is a must to overcome resistances in Arena, and useful in BGs. Casters should stack to 195/6 to overcome most resistance auras/buffs. The tricky part is Mages - they have Mage Armor, which gets them to 240, which I don't see a lot of people stacking to overcome. Stacking your gear to overcome a single classes' defense doesn't make a lot of sense, as that extra 44 points will usually come at a high itemization cost.
  • You covered Hit to 4%, though extra Hit wasn't always wasted - it used to be useful against Rogue's CoS, though that's a buggy spell and I don't know if that is still the case.
  • My itemization of Hit (to cap) > Spell Pen (to 195) > Intellect = Resilience > Haste >>> Crit = Mastery is based off of the PvE analysis of the secondary stats for Affliction, but that doesn't make it optimal for all Warlock specs. Crit has burst value, something that will be hard to model, but is totally viable in PvP. If you get a lucky string of crits in PvE, it will be averaged out over the course of a 5-8 minute long boss fight. If you get a string of lucky crits in PvP, you can take out an opposing healer, put incredible pressure on a DPS... Crit is an itemization that should be given some thought. You may want to see if specific classes should have "Crit Build" options.

4) Every character in PvP should have an escape trinket ability, period. If they're not human, they should have the 2-minute PvP trinket. Even an older 2-minute trinket (with lower Resilience) is better than none at all.

Not every spec is going to be able to make good use of on-demand trinkets, though they're generally better so you can burst your damage. DoT classes can use both fairly well, since spellpower is dynamically calculated, so a proc effect is still very good (and can sometimes be even better over long fights.)

Keep in mind the shared CDs of PvP trinkets, as well. Two Battlemaster trinkets will share the same CD, so their effect is reduced. Oddly, some of the proc trinkets share an ICD (Bloodthirsty Insignia of Dominance), too, so you may want to encourage people to have two different trinkets.

The last point is that... well... there are some very, very good PvE trinkets out there. I've considered getting the Darkmoon Card: Volcano for myself, as it's so very good. I don't know how to handle this one effectively - when is it better to step away from the PvP vendor and get a great PvE trinket? That's a tough call to make.

5) Not once they've discovered Resilience, they don't.

6) Absolutely for Arenas, Yes for Rated Battlegrounds, Probably Yes for unrated BGs and World PvP.  195 is the usual target.

7) Pity Arena Junkies redesigned their site a few weeks back, or I would point you there. The most common Affliction specs I've seen are 31/7/3 for Arenas and 32/7/2 or 34/7/0 for BGs. I'll have to look into Destro to see what's up, mine is 2/3/36 but I haven't been playing it.


NintendoJesus

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Re: The PvP Optimization Thread
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2011, 08:51:11 AM »
Hello,

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but the single most important(and hopefully simple change) imo for Mr. Robot to start his arena training would be an option to modify your hit % cap.

5% for melee and the equivalent for casters. 

I attempted to modify my hit stat weights in my pvp gear to approximate this, but I was unsuccessful.  Mr. Robot either wants me to get the full 8% or none at all.

Although this won't help a ton w/ BiS lists, it would at least allow you to optimize your current gear assuming your stat weights are relatively equal for PvP as they are for PvE. 

-NJ

Revulva

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Re: The PvP Optimization Thread
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2011, 06:33:17 AM »
We know we have to provide a way to use the lower hit cap for PvP - so don't worry about that one ;)

Vynka

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Re: The PvP Optimization Thread
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2011, 06:28:55 AM »
I believe there is a possibility that DR will be added to Resilience in 4.1, which would change this answer.
Actually Resilience is being "linearized" in 4.1, as it seems damage reduction from resilence was working like an exponential function.

Quote from: World of Warcraft PTR Patch 4.1 - Updated February 28th
Resilience scaling has been modified for linear returns, as opposed to increasing returns. Under the new formula, going from 30 resilience to 40 resilience gives players the same increase to survivability as going from 0 to 10. Resilience now scales in the same way armor and magic resistances do. A player with 32.5% damage reduction from resilience in 4.0.6 should see their damage reduction unchanged in 4.1. Those with less than 32.5% will gain slightly. Those with more will lose some damage reduction, increasingly so as their resilience climbs.

Source

yellowfive

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Re: The PvP Optimization Thread
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2011, 11:01:17 AM »
Good to know on resilience -- that actually makes things much easier for us!
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