Author Topic: Frost DK Stat Weights  (Read 4748 times)

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wuwho

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Frost DK Stat Weights
« on: February 02, 2012, 05:18:15 AM »
So I was a bit surprised to see the stat weights on DK's suddenly change, which after a bit of investigation looks like its based off of 4.2 (at least that is what http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/specs/deathknightfrostdw is saying).  The more odd part is, the stat weights aren't even the ones from 4.2, so I was wondering if anyone knew about this.

aggixx

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Re: Frost DK Stat Weights
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2012, 12:48:26 PM »
The comments on the link you posted is just a little dated, that's all.

I don't believe we've changed the weights any since 4.3 has launched, could you provide an example?

wuwho

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Re: Frost DK Stat Weights
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2012, 01:42:33 PM »
Below is a failed attempt of copying over from EJ's 4.3 Frost DK Forum, but as you can see expertise still ranks higher then haste, which if I'm not wrong also held true in 4.2, which would be hit>expertise>haste>mastery>crit.  Furthermore, it looks the PVP Default (hit>haste>expertise>mastery>crit) under the reforging options has the same stat weights as PVE Default build (hit>haste>expertise>mastery>crit.  Now I could be wrong in believing that expertise is more important then haste; in that case where is the information saying that?  To further back up my claim, granted with no actual stat weights but does have stat priorities http://www.noxxic.com/pve/death-knight/frost/stat-priority-and-reforging-strats

Stat 
410 DW 
410 2H
Strength    3.49    3.12
Yellow Hit    3.14    3.18
Expertise    2.48    2.53
Haste    1.92    1.74
Mastery   1.90    1.86
Crit    1.68    1.69
Hit Over Yellow    1.29    -


Tabu34

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Re: Frost DK Stat Weights
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2012, 01:52:41 PM »
One point to make here is that those stat weights, which are for BiS 410 gear, are not necessarily useful for any other gear level, especially not one at or below DS entry level.

I believe that the Mr. Robot developers have run a large amount of sims using all tools available to them in order to come up with the stat weights that are currently in use on the site.

yellowfive

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Re: Frost DK Stat Weights
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2012, 01:54:23 AM »
I'll ask Revulva in the morning -- he did most of the research on DPS DK weights.  His latest sims were showing haste as better than expertise still.  We re-ran simulations for all specs with the 4.3 patch, but SimC is in a constant stat of flux, so you never know, it may have changed since.
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wuwho

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Re: Frost DK Stat Weights
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2012, 06:01:34 AM »
I appreciate the prompt responses and I do understand that the stat weights I referenced were of 410 gear.  However, I still cannot draw upon the conclusion how haste would take a priority over expertise capping.  I offer to you a few of my reasons:

1) Given Frost DK's dps is based upon procs of not only auto attacks but obliterates (by killing machine and Rime), is it not as important to land each of those attacks to ensure the proper dps output?
2) Since most gear in DS tends to be short on haste (compared to FL), we are locked into the 2pc and 4 pc bonuses of our set, which need us to land attacks like obliterate and have runic empowerment activate by frost strikes.


Now yellowfive, you mentioned a colleague of yours doing the research on DK DPS and that he was using SimC.  I often use it also, but when I have the chance in the next day or so I will mess around with askmrrobot's stat weights vs the EJ ones and I'll post back what I see.

Tabu34

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Re: Frost DK Stat Weights
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2012, 06:18:14 AM »
When your rune-costing attacks get missed/parried/dodged, you get refunded the runes for them and can try again immediately at the cost of one GCD. Since DW Frost's damage relies more on Obliterate than Frost Strike, this probably devalues Exp. a bit. I am a bit rusty on Frost, since I went Unholy with my LFR Gurthalak, however I also believe that missed/parried/dodge Frost Strikes refund a percentage of their cost in RP as well.

I haven't done much research or play testing with DW Frost and tier bonuses so I can't really speak to that.

I'm always happy when a user that disagrees with Mr. Robot decides to take the time and run some simulations. More tests are always better! :)

wuwho

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Re: Frost DK Stat Weights
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2012, 06:31:41 AM »
From what I'm gathering from your perspective and I'll be honest can somewhat see is quite an odd situation in that it seem as if you are willing to gamble the potential loss of an attack for the gain of haste to potentially "modify" your other attacks.  I can very easily see how this could work, but saying the loss of a gcd or the ability to get a rune/rp back for it seems counter-productive.  I'll give you this as an example, I swing 100 times to land 100 hits in 100 seconds...you swing 100 times to land 99 times, but get the 100th in the 101st second.  Isn't my dps still higher?

Anglave

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Re: Frost DK Stat Weights
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2012, 09:33:52 AM »
I'll give you this as an example, I swing 100 times to land 100 hits in 100 seconds...you swing 100 times to land 99 times ...  Isn't my dps still higher?

In general, giving up a small amount of hit or exp to gain secondary stats won't be a terrible loss.

Using your example above:
If each of your 100 hits lands for 100 damage (avg), you made 10,000 damage in 100 seconds, for 100 dps.
If each of my 99 hits lands for 102 damage (avg) (because I traded Hit into Mastery, for example), I made 10,98 for 101 dps.

Also, in this particular case, we're talking about haste.
If you make 100 attacks and score 100 hits in 100 seconds at 100 damage each, you've made 100 dps.
If I make 102 attacks (because I have more haste) and score 101 hits (and 1 miss because I have less hit) in 100 seconds,
 at 100 damage each, I've made 101 dps.

Obviously these numbers are completely made up, but the point is, missing occasionally (and we're talking very occasionally) isn't necessarily a dps loss, if you traded those misses for attacks that hit harder or happen faster.  Which is where the complicated math comes in, and that's why we run simulations.

It's pretty complex to determine exactly how valuable those last few percent of Hit and Expertise are in relation to the other secondary stats.  Clearly no one is going to tell you to run around with 3% Hit Rating in PvE.  Even if the gains in secondary stats averaged out (over tens of thousands of attacks) to a higher dps (which I doubt would happen), there would still be the functional problem of large stretches of time where you were missing many attacks in a row.  Nobody wants that.

Hitting almost all the time is good.  Having a compulsion to never miss isn't necessarily optimal, though.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 09:46:18 AM by Anglave »

Revulva

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Re: Frost DK Stat Weights
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2012, 11:17:09 AM »
I have tested the haste vs. expertise on frost DK's numerous times. I just re-tested a couple weeks ago. Point for point, haste edges out expertise in value. Expertise only applies to special attacks that will refund runes if you don't land them, so it's value is much less than hit, which affects attacks like frost strike where you are not refunded the value.

So, when comparing expertise and haste... you are comparing doing everything 1% faster to losing a GCD some fraction of 1% of the time (it is just as likely the dodge/parry will happen on an auto-attack). To me it is not intuitively obvious which one of those would be more valuable, so, I tested it via simulation. Feel free to swap the stat weights if you prefer, all my tests show the values we have to produce the best theoretical DPS.

Arsozah

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Re: Frost DK Stat Weights
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2012, 12:38:29 PM »
Wouldn't Masterfrost DW DK be viable? Mainly since the number of AoE fights have been increased alot lately. Then you would take into account that hitting expcap is necessary and hitcap for spells. Missing out on the haste will be covered by unholy spec and because one will be stacking mastery instead of haste, the hits from obliterate, frost strike and howling blast will be greater.
This is purely hypothetical. I haven't actually tested this out, but have read a couple posts about it on other sites. Some even suggest dropping reapplying BP for more obliterate hits.

Anglave

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Re: Frost DK Stat Weights
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2012, 12:52:03 PM »
Arsozah,
  • You're the only person in this thread talking about Masterfrost.  Thus your whole post seems sort of non sequitur.
  • The number of fights involving meaningful AoE in Dragonsoul is quite small.  And I'm unaware of it having increased "alot lately".  Do you have an example?
  • "Then you would take into account that hitting expcap is necessary and hitcap for spells."  -- I do not understand what you're saying.
  • "Missing out on the haste will be covered by unholy spec..."  -- I do not understand what you're saying.
  • "...because one will be stacking mastery instead of haste, the hits from obliterate, frost strike and howling blast will be greater." -- Yes, but less frequent.
  • Masterfrost is already an existing stat weight preset.  Mr. Robot happily lets you select it if you choose.  So I'm really confused about your post.

I'm sorry if it seems like I'm attacking you, that isn't my intent.  But I completely fail to see how your post is relevant to the discussion in this thread.  Can you enlighten me?
« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 01:15:01 PM by Anglave »

Arsozah

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Re: Frost DK Stat Weights
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2012, 01:08:32 PM »
Hitting Expertise cap en hitcap for spells would ensure that all of our HBs will hit and the Obliterates not dodged. This will increase the dps substantially since we will not be missing out on a GCD. Missing a global cooldown is quite a dps drop from my experience. Even though our runes and a portion of our RP will be restored upon a miss/dodge/parry, it still hurts our dps quite alot.

For the rest, just ignore my post. I realized after reading your post Anglave, the mistake I made by posting it. I'm sorry for the confusion I caused.

Btw, any criticism directed at me is taken with good will. I know my own faults and having someone point them out to me makes it easier for me to correct them.

wuwho

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Re: Frost DK Stat Weights
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2012, 02:19:30 PM »
@Revulva: What are you actually setting the parameters for your simulations at? I'm starting to think that is where you and I are seeing the differences and what toon are you simming?  I'll be honest because I only sim myself and maybe I'm at the point where my toon is not considered optimal in the askmrrobot matrix. 

@Arsozah and Anglave: So aside from our really bad examples, which I guess I will start producing sim results sometime in the next day (even if Revulva does not reply by then), I think we're diverging on the value of a gcd.  1% more to land the attack or 1% more to haste, has been an interesting discussion.  I do appreciate and agree with Arsozah in that, losing a gcd is not good and historically speaking a loss in dps.  Such a heavy proc based class needs each attack to go off because they are there to enable your next attack, not for you to try and repeat the one you just missed.  By giving up that GCD, aren't you just pushing your priority system (as in rotation) down another notch?

Anglave

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Re: Frost DK Stat Weights
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2012, 03:08:14 PM »
Such a heavy proc based class needs each attack to go off because they are there to enable your next attack, not for you to try and repeat the one you just missed.  By giving up that GCD, aren't you just pushing your priority system (as in rotation) down another notch?

That's a really complicated question to answer with authority.  Thus, simulation.

My point was simply that it's not obvious by casual observation or napkin math that being slightly below hit or exp caps is suboptimal.