Author Topic: Shaman - Resto stats for MrRobot weights  (Read 2428 times)

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neal121

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Shaman - Resto stats for MrRobot weights
« on: November 08, 2012, 12:31:43 PM »
Anyone have a good setup for MoP resto shaman?

raychumley

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Re: Shaman - Resto stats for MrRobot weights
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2012, 02:01:24 PM »
From what I understand there are a couple of different thoughts for resto shaman stat weights. One is mastery heavy, useful if you're pushing progressions and you're raid is still learning the fights and taking a lot of damage. The second is a balanced set-up. I've seen different balances with haste = mastery or crit = mastery or crit = haste, etc. And finally is a haste heavy build, for when you're farming content. I know that is all an oversimplification, but just a starting point.

Now, my main is a resto shaman, and I've been running a balanced build with mastery = haste = crit. It's been working for me, got but I'll fully admit I'm not very far progressed. However, the groups I run with I tend to do very well when compared to the other healers. Here is what I've been using, all soft-caps and soft-cap weights removed:

int = 1
spell power = .75
spirit = .65
crit = .55
haste = .55
mastery = .55

At this point, I'm starting to consider putting a spirit cap in place, but I've not done so yet. I'm sure this is not 100% optimal, but it's working for me until we get something other then the "Temporary Weights". I as well would welcome any other input, and would like to hear what other people might be using.
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neal121

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Re: Shaman - Resto stats for MrRobot weights
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2012, 02:03:37 PM »
Ill give a try to your stat weights.

I had mine set up for Cata since I shaman healed most of Cata but since there are some class (or entire-game wide changes) for healing and us shammies, trying to change things around for a little better output.

I do 10man raid btw, forgot to mention that in the original.

Edit:

I have also done some reading between Noxxic and Elitist, for Mastery a 50% balance is recommended (5400 gear rating) and for Haste, Noxxic "Assuming normal raid buffs and Ancestral Swiftness, the 1st breakpoint is at 871 Haste Rating from your gear and adds 1 extra tick to Riptide, Healing Rain, and Earthliving Weapon. The 2nd breakpoint is at 3764 Haste Rating from your gear and adds 1 tick to Healing Tide Totem and a 2nd tick to Healing Stream Totem. "

Im sure we all know how Haste works but if some dont know, I just left the entire sentence as is but the main thing I wanted to show was the haste rating.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 02:07:27 PM by neal121 »

raychumley

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Re: Shaman - Resto stats for MrRobot weights
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2012, 02:20:43 PM »
Yea, I've seen the mastery to 50% thing, and the haste breakpoints too, and that does bring up some good points. With my current gear, I'm not too sure I could drop below 50% mastery. I also did used to have a soft-cap for haste until I started to go over it without trying too. When I did have that, the weights went something like this:

int = 1
spell power = .75
spirit = .65
crit = .55
haste = .6     soft-cap = 0.1250     soft-cap weight = .55
mastery = .55
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neal121

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Re: Shaman - Resto stats for MrRobot weights
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2012, 11:12:26 PM »
Yea, I've seen the mastery to 50% thing, and the haste breakpoints too, and that does bring up some good points. With my current gear, I'm not too sure I could drop below 50% mastery. I also did used to have a soft-cap for haste until I started to go over it without trying too. When I did have that, the weights went something like this:

int = 1
spell power = .75
spirit = .65
crit = .55
haste = .6     soft-cap = 0.1250     soft-cap weight = .55
mastery = .55

Ya I am pretty sure thats VERY close to what I had before.

I should also mention for others who may come across this, haste levels are different for goblins.

871(441 for goblins)
2017 (1576 for goblins)
3764 (3306 for goblins )

And one of the things I keep forgetting to put into play is the new mana "boost" for Crits - Resurgence. This makes Crits more important now than before. So from EJ: "That said, regarding its throughput using average numbers Crit will be better than any other stat for targets above 46.7% regarding single target heals and for targets above 66.7% for AoE heals."
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 11:17:42 PM by neal121 »

raychumley

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Re: Shaman - Resto stats for MrRobot weights
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2012, 11:26:42 PM »
Don't worry too much about the haste rating needed, for goblins or not. Just put the 0.1250 in, and Mr. Robot will take racials and everything else into account.

You're right about the mana returns from crit, it can get fairly substantial. That's why I put it even with everything else, and also part of why I'm starting to think about a spirit cap. Once I do come up with a comfortable spirit cap, that should free up a lot of stat points that can in turn go back into higher mana returns from crit (and more mastery and haste too).
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yellowfive

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Re: Shaman - Resto stats for MrRobot weights
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2012, 07:37:43 AM »
This post by revulva is pretty good concerning resto shaman gearing:

http://forums.askmrrobot.com/index.php?topic=4374.msg28303#msg28303

It explains how the 50% mastery number isn't all that useful.
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raychumley

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Re: Shaman - Resto stats for MrRobot weights
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2012, 09:16:54 AM »
Indeed, a good thread with plenty of useful information. However, it still does not address any recommended stat weights. As resto shaman we're still using "PvE: temporary weights".

I think there is also a bit of confusion about the whole crit vs. mastery thing, and the suggested caps. The thing that is going to make a difference is the targets HP%. Why? Because the lower the HP, the bigger the benefit mastery gives. So, does it make sense to have high mastery if your raid stay at 90% + HP? No, I would not think so. However, a high mastery build is going to do a lot of benefit when your raid hovers close to the 10% HP value. Of course those are both extremes I would think. Hence, in the stats I suggested there is no cap on mastery. I did say that I had heard of this 50% mastery suggestion, not that I agree with it.

I think maybe sometimes people are skimming threads and seeing % and it just clicks in their heads that must be stat %. But with mastery it's all about HP %. A great thread is http://lifeingroup5.com/?p=2965 and I think the biggest point to take from that is in the summary where they say "The breakpoints where Mastery contributes a greater amount of throughput than Crit are: approximately 43% HP for heals that can trigger AA, and approximately 65% for heals that canít trigger AA."

Ultimately though, what does this all mean to a resto shaman trying to find out their stat weights? It means that there is no set weights that are going to work for every one. You have to look at your raid team, and where their health is during the fight to see what's going to work best for you.

Just my two cents though.
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yellowfive

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Re: Shaman - Resto stats for MrRobot weights
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2012, 09:23:48 AM »
Yeah that's a good summary -- similar to the conclusion rev came to in that other thread.  It's sort of a pain to come up with one gearing strategy that will work in every situation for a resto shaman -- you really need to design it for your particular raid group.

I'm pretty sure that "finishing" the healer weights was on his short list of things to do when he returns from vacation.
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Revulva

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Re: Shaman - Resto stats for MrRobot weights
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2012, 02:47:26 PM »
So... For all the other healing classes/specs, I have competed or am close to completing a spreadsheet model that I can use to calculate stat weights.

After looking at resto shaman and trying a lot of different approaches, I just don't think there is any way to model mastery well using a formula-based approach. I will calculate some basic weights to get an idea for how strong crit is in relation to intellect, and a value for haste - but mastery is just going to have to be a guess. I can put something in the model for an average health level of the target... But that is a really bad way to model it, in my opinion. What if you always use certain spells on low health targets? What percentage of those spells were used on low health targets? It will change every fight. I might add a sheet to let people play with it.

mescyn

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Re: Shaman - Resto stats for MrRobot weights
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2012, 04:01:07 PM »
So... For all the other healing classes/specs, I have competed or am close to completing a spreadsheet model that I can use to calculate stat weights.

After looking at resto shaman and trying a lot of different approaches, I just don't think there is any way to model mastery well using a formula-based approach. I will calculate some basic weights to get an idea for how strong crit is in relation to intellect, and a value for haste - but mastery is just going to have to be a guess. I can put something in the model for an average health level of the target... But that is a really bad way to model it, in my opinion. What if you always use certain spells on low health targets? What percentage of those spells were used on low health targets? It will change every fight. I might add a sheet to let people play with it.

The only remotely applicable solution I could think of for resto mastery was an addon which would periotically probe raid health levels (say every 5 seconds or so) to then be used as input to a tool which could consume it and provide an aprox mastery weight. That seems way beyond the scope of what amr is trying to be, though.

It'd be awesome if blizzard would add an invisible aura which changes at some health % increment so you could do analysis with logs on WOL, but that's neither here nor there.


neal121

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Re: Shaman - Resto stats for MrRobot weights
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2012, 08:00:18 PM »
With my setup http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/usa/dentarg/kshams

I am being destroyed on mana during Feng on normal. May have to increase spirit.

raychumley

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Re: Shaman - Resto stats for MrRobot weights
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2012, 09:18:56 AM »
So... For all the other healing classes/specs, I have competed or am close to completing a spreadsheet model that I can use to calculate stat weights.

After looking at resto shaman and trying a lot of different approaches, I just don't think there is any way to model mastery well using a formula-based approach. I will calculate some basic weights to get an idea for how strong crit is in relation to intellect, and a value for haste - but mastery is just going to have to be a guess. I can put something in the model for an average health level of the target... But that is a really bad way to model it, in my opinion. What if you always use certain spells on low health targets? What percentage of those spells were used on low health targets? It will change every fight. I might add a sheet to let people play with it.

We know that if you're healing a raid group with low health, mastery is a very good stat. We also know if you're healing a raid group with high health, mastery is not a very good choice.

What about two presets? A mastery heavy one and a crit heavy one. Maybe even a third balanced preset?
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 09:30:57 AM by raychumley »
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mescyn

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Re: Shaman - Resto stats for MrRobot weights
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2012, 10:25:48 AM »
What about two presets? A mastery heavy one and a crit heavy one. Maybe even a third balanced preset?

Out of curiosity, how do you do a balanced setup in stat weights.

For example, unless I misunderstand the optimizer terribly the following won't produce a balanced stat distribution:

mastery: 0.50
crit: 0.50
haste: 0.50

What it seems to me that would do was get amr to ignore secondary throughput stats entirely if the item has spirit. Is there some other mechanism in existence to get amr to balance stats out?

raychumley

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Re: Shaman - Resto stats for MrRobot weights
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2012, 10:38:02 AM »
A couple of thoughts...

1. I'm just making a suggestion of what might be a good preset (emphasis on "might be"). I'm not a dev though, so can't say if it would or would not work.

2. From what I understood (and I sure could be wrong) but I thought AMR had some code in it that kicked in when two stat weights were set to the same thing, to try and balance them. I think I might have read something about it not being as happy with three stats being set the same though.

3. I don't think I understand the last part you said. Why would the secondary throughput stats be ignored if the item has spirit?

4. On my restoration shaman I've put master, crit, and haste all at .55 (stat weights listed earlier in this thread). This seems to be trying to balance the stat to a fairly even level between the three. Take note, the % of mastery is much higher then the % of haste or crit because of buffs, but the mastery, crit, and haste ratings appear to be getting balanced fairly even.
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