Author Topic: Trinket: Inscribed Bag of Hydra-Spawn, Is it really so bad?  (Read 2124 times)

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alcortes

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Hi,

I am curious about Inscribed Bag of Hydra-Spawn, the normal version (ilvl 522) of this healing trinket is ranked very low, even bellow some 458 trinkets (justice) and some 463 trinkets (heroics 5 man).

So my question is: Is it really so bad?

My Resto Shaman: Sueñalobos Resto.

yellowfive

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Re: Trinket: Inscribed Bag of Hydra-Spawn, Is it really so bad?
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2013, 09:11:52 AM »
We simulated the ToT healing trinkets several times, and we wanted them to rank higher... but they just don't.

If you take the normal version, and just do some napkin math for your character to get a ballpark:

~25% haste, so it will have a proc rate of about 1.5 RPPM.  It shields for ~30k, so that's 45k damage shielded per minute.  That's just... not very much shielding.

Basically you want to look at all of the spells that you would normally cast in 1 minute, and figure out how much spell power you would need to add to do 45k more total healing -- that would be your rough ranking for the proc.  We are estimating it at ~300 spell power right now.  I don't know the coefficients on all of the resto shaman heals, but that seems like the right ballpark.
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JMC31488

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Re: Trinket: Inscribed Bag of Hydra-Spawn, Is it really so bad?
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2013, 02:36:26 AM »
I have a question about this Trinket.  From what I can read, it procs off HoTs.  Given that Druids are all about HoTs, fast-ticking Lifebloom on tank, Rejuv's on the raid and Wild Growth mixed in with Effloresence, does this greatly assist with this Trinket?  Such as, it's a very weak proc, but with the magnitude of HoTs being used constantly, does that help it proc more often which might make it more useful for a Druid?

Just wondering on the work done for it since I had it drop in LFR.  AMR says it's not an upgrade, but wanna make sure before I vendor it.

alcortes

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Re: Trinket: Inscribed Bag of Hydra-Spawn, Is it really so bad?
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2013, 02:55:14 AM »
Thank you very much Yellowfive.

I did similar maths with similar results.

The most interesting thing is that while this healing trinket is just bad for healing, the DPS version of Megaera's trinket is just amazing for my elemental spec. I don't think this is a coincidence or a Blizzard mistake, there must be some reasoning behind those numbers.

Maybe it is just a class thing, like JMC31488 suggest, or maybe healers already have enough healing stats without trinkets for dealing with all ToT mechanics.

yellowfive

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Re: Trinket: Inscribed Bag of Hydra-Spawn, Is it really so bad?
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2013, 10:44:09 AM »
RPPM trinkets do not proc more frequently if you have more events that can trigger it.  They are designed such that the only thing that changes your chance to get a proc is haste.

My guess is that blizzard considers a damage shield more valuable than e.g. a direct heal, so they reduced the magnitude.  That's probably true... it is less prone to overhealing and it always "heals" at exactly the right time (when you take damage).  That said... I still think this trinket needs a little buff to either the size of the shields or the proc rate.
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raychumley

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Re: Trinket: Inscribed Bag of Hydra-Spawn, Is it really so bad?
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2013, 11:42:01 AM »
these changes are somewhat old, but the proc rate was increased some time ago, do you know if this was taken into account/re-evaluated? Looks like it was buffed on two occasions, on Mar 12 and Apr 2.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8197741003
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/8953693/Patch_52_Hotfixes_April_2-3_29_2013
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yellowfive

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Re: Trinket: Inscribed Bag of Hydra-Spawn, Is it really so bad?
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2013, 12:26:21 PM »
We did take into account one of those buffs, but probably not the 2nd one... I can't find any information anywhere about what the proc rate was actually changed to...

The lightning-imbued chalice was actually doubled in a similar hotfix (or roughly doubled... no exact numbers were given).  I guess for now we could assume that they also doubled this trinket's proc rate... it would still probably rank low, but would at least not suck so horribly.  We'll re-run some estimates with that.
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raychumley

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Re: Trinket: Inscribed Bag of Hydra-Spawn, Is it really so bad?
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2013, 03:49:27 PM »
Yea, I could not find any specific numbers for the buff it got the second time either, sure it makes it hard to come up with real numbers. Of course, we all know sometimes you just need to lock in a specific trinket if it works for you.
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JMC31488

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Re: Trinket: Inscribed Bag of Hydra-Spawn, Is it really so bad?
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2013, 09:53:05 PM »
@yellow

That doesn't seem right for rppm.  From what you said, casting 1 Rejuv gives the same odds of proc'ing off a rppm trinket as 10 Rejuv's does.  Purely mathmatically, that seems wrong.  As each Rejuv should individually have an inherent chance at making it proc.  I've only read a little on the rppm and understand haste increases it's proc rate, but I really don't think that 1 Rejuv running is the same as 10 Rejuv's running.  Provided, from what I read, HoT ticks can proc it to activate then each tick on each Rejuv has a chance to activate the proc.

My understanding for rppm from old ppm is: No ICD which causes it to activate in a more random state.  (Blizz's way of 'fun'.) This allows for long stretches of no procs and times where it can overwrite the old one before it even wears off.  I'll look up more on rrpm tmrw, but I really don't think 1 Rejuv = 10 Rejuv's for rrpm.

yellowfive

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Re: Trinket: Inscribed Bag of Hydra-Spawn, Is it really so bad?
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2013, 10:36:25 PM »
I'm fairly certain that it works as I described.  The entire design goal of RPPM is to equalize the value of trinkets across classes and specs.  It allows blizzard to make trinkets without worrying that it will be massively overpowered for certain specs.

Each RPPM trinket effect has its own tracking mechanism -- the important inputs are the last time the trinket had a chance to proc, and the last time that the trinket actually did proc.  When any event happens that could possibly trigger the trinket, those 2 values are used to calculate the proc chance.  The event could be a lifebloom tick, nourish cast, rejuv tick -- doesn't matter.  The more frequently you generate events, the lower your chance on each event.  This is why they labeled it "real ppm".  If a trinket is 2 "procs per minute", the goal here is that, no matter what, you're going to get on average... 2 procs per minute!  The goal really wasn't to make them more random I don't think... though that is certainly a side effect.  The goal was to make the proc rates very similar for e.g. a resto druid or a holy paladin with the same amount of haste.
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JMC31488

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Re: Trinket: Inscribed Bag of Hydra-Spawn, Is it really so bad?
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2013, 04:26:23 AM »
Found, http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6893549789  for rppm explanation.  Trusting it since it's a blue post.

From what I read in that post, each rppm item has it's own rate that is then multiplied by your melee/ranged/haste rate, based on which is higher, and by the last time it activated divided by 60 sec.  The very bottom gives that exact math.  I read nothing about each individual event dividing up the chance to proc it.

My understanding is this: (I'll use the numbers in the post): Windsong  2(ppm) * 1.22(haste) * 1.4(time since last chance) / 60 (sec per min) = 5.693%.  That 5.693% is the chance each event can proc Windsong again.

Even the changes in http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8197741003  state nothing about each event dividing up the proc chance.

And yellow ^.^ Blizz stated multiple times in their blue posts that it WAS to make it more random.  They felt raiders needed something "more" to liven up raiding.

The old system was based on Weapon Speed, which would cause inconsistencies across classes due to varying uses.  This system eliminated that Weapon Speed calculation and purely took Haste as a factor.  The proc chance per event, as long as each class has the same amount of haste, is now the same instead of wildly different.

If I missed a section or misinterpreted a part then let me know.  I've reread both posts about 3-5 times and couldn't find any Blue posts other than those two I posted above.

Edit: First post was about Weapon Enchants, as that was the first development for RPPM system, which was later integrated into ToT trinkets.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2013, 04:28:17 AM by JMC31488 »