We are a small group of players from the Hammer of Wrath Paladin Discord server. We range from well respected members who are known to offer quality advice to Guide Writers and Moderators of the server. Some of us are still in early BoD progress and some of us are on Mythic Jaina. Some have been in the Paladin community even before Discord and others joined at various stages after the launch of Legion.
We have recently seen your new Class Guides, namely Retribution. There are some concerns that were raised by both your Guide and Blog-post that we would like to address. We absolutely agree that guides should offer players choice. That is why all of the guides that we recommend on our server include many choices. We highlight strengths and weaknesses that exists not just in terms of raw numbers, but as well as pointing out specific scenarios that an often overlooked Talent might excel in. This extends to gear choices such as Azerite and Trinkets as well.
Rotations are almost always the single largest point of improvement to be made by a player. In our experiences though it starts with a player asking a question similar to “Is this a good sim DPS for X item level?” or “I was looking at X log of the same item level and they do much more DPS than me. Is it my gear?” From that the conversation usually very quickly turns in helping provide them with the appropriate tools and resources that they can use identify potential shortcomings and what can be done to resolve them. Many people are focused heavily on their Gear/Talents/Stats when the appropriate path is analyze their own performance from logs.
There is no singular right way to play. Not only can Gear and Talents affect this but content that you chose to do such as Mythic+ or Raiding. In the same way there is no single source of information that is the “Best” Different sources of information such as Guides can all approach the same subject of ensuring a person is getting quality and accurate information but at the same time they approach it with a different angle. Different people have different methods of learning that works best for them. That is why in our Discord we recommend 3 different written guides as well as a YouTube/Video guide.
We also disagree on a few subjects. While there is valuable information that you can sometimes find in a top parse there is also information that if not understood properly can be a detriment. In all 3 Ret logs for example they did not switch to the adds on Grong. This approach might work for players in guilds that are very skilled overall or that have already cleared the fight on multiple occasions it might not work for the person whos guild is pulling Grong for the first time.
As ridiculous as it might sound coming from a group of people who constantly tell people to “sim yourself” there is a limit on how much you should focus on a sim. Like anything else it is a tool and that tool might not be the best tool for the job. In some cases it is the equivalent of using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. We prefer to use the sim as a baseline and if there are specific scenarios we can analyze and adjust as needed. For example, you run a Patchwerk sim and it suggests that you should have 2 passive trinkets and Inquisition. Let’s assume for a real world example that we are still in Uldir and are starting progression on Fetid and you get assigned to a small add. The small add lines up well with your Avenging Wrath and you absolutely need to make sure it dies before Fetid can consume it. To maximize that damage you would swap 1 of your passive trinkets to an on-use trinket. Now let’s say that you’re better at killing the small add but there are still plenty of times where it does not die in time. You swap from Inquisition, which overall provides a “smooth” damage output to Crusade which at the time might of been lower overall damage but greatly increases your burst damage allowing you to easily kill the add in time. Information like this can be found in our guides. As we progress through the raids we notice there are cases where you may have to play a build that is not “optimal”. These are also topics that can come up in our dedicated questions chat so we can explain to players why that may be the case if they have not seen our guides.
The group of us took some time today to discuss the above topics in more detail in the form of a stream. We have uploaded a copy of this stream to YouTube. It ended up being a very long discussion. In the video description I have included timestamps at the start of main topics.
The point of this is not to harass or point fingers. We genuinely want to be able to work with AMR to some extent. We prefer to be able to provide players with multiple sources of information so they can find something that works best for them. We gain nothing by turning people away from AMR. All it does is take up time and create confusion on why a common resource is not recommended. It would be much easier for us to let the players who use AMR know that the results they see are reasonably acceptable.
This is our attempt to reach out to see if we can come to some sort of agreement. In general we would love to know if you think something said by us is unfair or misrepresented in some way. Even better is if you do take the time to watch the video and want to engage with us directly. We want to be able to not turn players away from what could be a valuable resource or at the very least stop both sides from “attacking” each other. Any of us can be reached directly on Discord as the following: