Stat Goals and Graphs


#49

I understand your first two answers (my last two questions) well.

Regarding the third answer (first question), consider the following scenarios:

  • Scenario A: The simulation uses increments of 1000 stats to conserve cpu power while covering the entire space. It finds that >99% dps is achievable with various stat combinations having 1000 or more haste, 1000 or more crit, and 1000 or more versatility. All three have differing upper bounds, but they all start at the same lower bound.

  • Scenario B: The simulation uses increments of 100 stats despite requiring more cpu power. It finds that >99% dps is achievable with various stat combinations having 800 or more haste, 1000 or more crit, and 1200 or more versatility. There is no change to upper bounds (vs scenario A), but now their lower bounds differ slightly on the main chart.

I’m curious if scenario B would have a noticeable impact on user perceptions. Obviously it doesn’t greatly change AMR’s recommendation; so from a rational calculation point of view the extra cpu effort isn’t worthwhile. But could this give users a more comfortable perception? It might be that those extra clock cycles make users feel like AMR is more correct despite you and I both knowing that higher fidelity has already been achieved from dropping stat weights in the first place.


#50

It actually would have zero impact on the recommended gear – the data points generated for these stat displays are not the data points used to create the predictive model for ranking gear.

I’m not sure if making the stat display have higher fidelity and thus track what the optimizer is doing more closely would make a difference to people or not… hard to say without trying it.


#51

So, the purpose of the stat goal chart is for us to see what gear / stat balance we should optimally be and provide us a general range that’s signified by the light colored bar. I’m going to have to agree with another poster saying that the dark bar confuses people. Also, yes, I can just mouse over the percentage to get the numeric value, but if I’m supposed to use that chart for reference, and there’s no visual indicator where I fall in that range on the chart, the format of information should be the same at first glance.

I guess what I’m frustrated with is that I am clicking “Best in Bags” so that I could get a simple answer. But instead, I find that I could “possibly” switch out X pieces because I fall into this large stat range and it’s about the same. Is there something that would help me see which could possibly be switched? Or if I equip this legendary or legendary pair, what gear would work best to keep those stats balanced? If it’s all manual, I’m not sure what the benefit of the premium would be. My favorite feature was Best in Bags for it’s simplicity.


#52

The purpose is to give people some context for what Best in Bags is doing. Since gear optimization doesn’t really follow simple stat priorities anymore, BiB could move your stats around in non-intuitive ways.

You can still just do what BiB recommends without question and perform top-notch in-game. We were just getting many questions like: Crit is my best stat, but BiB just removed crit from my gear to get a different stat, why? The answer is because there is because simple stat priorities aren’t really a thing.

Having so much of your gear tied up with special effects makes the problem more complicated. What stats you have ends up being a side-effect a lot of the time.

If were were to put a marker on that graph to show where your current gear is… and then BiB picks a set that moves you into a stat range that it shows as probably sub-optimal, people would be even more confused! Even though that might be a totally valid optimization.

Look at it as a bar chart with an error bar at the end. That is how it is intended to be read, just to give people a rough idea of the relative value of stats.


#53

I too would like to see where my current stats lie on the graph bar.


#54

2 posts were split to a new topic: Question about Mastery Neck Enchant


#55

@yellowfive please, make this picture to show where you are at the moment… not only “what is good” for you.
Thank you.


#56

I’m a bit conflicted on how I feel about the way the data on stats is presented.
I like the fact that you don’t give too much weight to weights (eheh), because they serve no more than a linear predictor in a neighborhood.

At the same time I fear that stat goals could be misinterpreted all the same, because they are actually saying “hey, you know, as an info, 95% of the best combinations lie here!” but not “you should always definitely aim for this!” because of actives, set bonuses etc.

However, if you decide to give them such a central spot in the presentation of the best in bags/slots, I think they deserve to be presented in a way that is rapid to compare to the actual pc stats, e.g. in the way ddcorkum proposed, otherwise the comparation will always be clunky because we’ll need to mouse-hover on the right column to see our stats, and see by eye where we are standing on the chart.

I see your point, that creating an hit-miss mark on the chart could make the false impression that best in bags combinations that miss the colored zone are “wrong” or “bugs”, but I think the community would be best served by understanding that “all truth lies in simulation” and that stat goals, even if more comprehensive than stat weights (i.e. “truer” outside of a neighborhood of your actual stats), are NOT the only side of the coin, while still giving a more complete presentation to data.


#57

A post was split to a new topic: Best in Bags Question


#58

I completely agree with ddcorkum. Please add red markers of where current gear configuration sits. Second, not sure if another poster mentioned it. I also reference warcraft logs. Would it be possible to put that information into the DR (data repository) then mine it for the stat averages of say the top 10 or 20 percent of dps for that class/spec? Put those averaged results say in Purple (use a 1% percent margin?). Now we will have the range, the red (your current), and the (purple) the average from warcraft logs of the top dps configuration stats?


#60

We are working on a big UI/UX overhaul and we will be revisiting how to display stat goals.

Including stats found on top log parses has a lot of problems associated with it. Gearing at that level of play is subject to a lot of trendiness and confirmation bias. We are trying to provide a completely data driven gear solution that is trend-agnostic and based solely on math and statistics, not feelings. We think this will ultimately show players that there are a lot more viable options for top level gearing than they have been led to believe.

Unfortunately we are fighting against many years of players being trained to use simple stat priorities and to only consider local maximum solutions to the gearing problem. The stat graphs we have now are a step in the right direction, but we still need to find a better way to explain what the optimizer is doing.

I have seen a lot of people want this indication of where their stats fall in the range. Presumably so they can see how their stats should change to be more optimal. The reason we have not done this is because it indicates that we didn’t achieve our goal of explaining the gear solution. If users understood what we were trying to show, they wouldn’t ask for this. The feedback is very useful for us going forward as we work on the next iteration of the site.


#61

Hi,
for me with yellow fives explanation the chart itself is good to understand.

Where i am always not so sure is as well the topic about “typical class stat” vs. current optimization.
example: my subtyl rogue gets the following after BiB: (ilvl918)

with this char, i only go lfr … but anyhow, i have similar results with my hc chars.

If i choose BiS: (only ilvl922) then it completely changes to mastery, even just 3 ilvl higher

clearly understood, different leggies impacts everything, but from major crit to major mastery is quite different, no?

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#62

I would need the string from your addon, not the export from the website in order to recreate this. I’d have to see what legendary items are being chosen to comment on how the stat priority could change like that.

This is a good example of what we are talking about, though. It’s feasible that with your current gear, you want to get more crit, but making a change to something like a legendary item or set bonus can shift your desired stats significantly.


#63

For what its worth, I actually have come around to agreeing with Swol. I think they are going in the right direction by moving further and further away from any emphasis on stat quantities (thanks Zoopercat for the theorycrafting blogs).

With hindsight, what would have been more useful to me this expansion would be a table like the following:

    Source        Current Impact on DPS         BiB Impact on DPS
                    SOLO      MULTI             SOLO          MULTI
    Crit            25%          20%             +2%          (-4%)
    Haste           15%          12%            (-3%)           0%
    Mastery         30%          45%             +2%           +6%
    Vers             5%           4%              0%            0%
    Procs/Other     25%          19%             +5%           +2%
    --------------------------------------------------------------
    TOTAL          100%         100%             +6%           +4%

This would’ve helped me in two ways: (a) the procs/other line emphasizes what they’ve been trying to say, that a big part of our performance isn’t actually from stats; and (b) seeing at a glance the impact on two different setups (adaptive single and adaptive multi, in this example). The downside is that it isn’t a graphic picture, so isn’t quite as much a replacement of this much-discussed graph but rather would compliment it.

Edit: bottom line, though, is that I can’t wait to see what they are planning to cook up next.


#64

Something like that could be a cool addition: visually show in a simple way how much the non-stat stuff on your gear is contributing to your performance in relation to your stats. We’ll keep that in mind as we play with new layouts and stuff.


#65

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#66

I sure wish I could see where my current stat combination is on the chart. To know how close I am to ideal for my item level…
Like seriously, why isn’t there a marker showing where I am currently?


#67

I admit, that it is a bit difficult to make a complex scenario explainable via graphs.

However Ddcorkum might have found a potential way of displaying things in an easier way.

Nevertheless I am glad that you invested so much time in developing your awesome tool.

Have a pleasent sunday and stay healthy.

Kind regards
Sascha


#68

ddcorkum’s example is great. Adding markers to display a character’s current stats would make the graph much more useful. In it’s current form the graph is effectively meaningless at-a-glance. It forces the player to switch between the game and the graph to get their stat numbers and manually evaluate their standing, which to me kind of defeats the purpose of using an evaluation tool like this.


#69

We have a few new ideas for displaying stats to people with the BfA redesign of the website. We think that the current stat graphs and summaries are useful, and many people have told us that they like them… but it still doesn’t quite get across the information we’re trying to relate.

So we’re going to try out a few new ideas when BfA goes live, and we’ll be interested to see how people like it.

The main problem with the current stat goals is say we did add a marker that says “you are here”. Many people would incorrectly look at it and say, “oh I need more haste based on this chart in order to move up, end of story.” When that’s not always true… sometimes lowering your haste results in a better set of gear due to other factors.

We want to come up with a way to present stats that makes it clear that stats can never be evaluated in a vacuum – sometimes you have to sacrifice stats to pick up a set bonus or legendary, or sometimes the “cost” of getting more of the “best” stat is too high, you would be better off with a specific combination of “worse” stats. This is all very difficult to get across in a succinct little chart.