Holy Paldin Optimisation (Mana)

Hi there,

I know that Mr Robot is very good at coming up with original ideas but sometimes I wonder if something is going wrong with the Holy Paladin glimmer build. I know you guys don’t like it when people compare the Mr Robot sims to logs etc - since particularly with healing players tend to cheese it.

But, I’ve been looking through the holy paladin logs and I’m really trying to get Mr Robot to push me closer to what the top guys are doing before we jump into Mythic progress this weekend. One key thing i’ve noticed is that pretty much every holy paladin is using one azerite piece with a ret trait - Lights Decree to extend the duration of avenging wrath something which I can’t get Mr Robot to suggest. Additionally I think it is overvaluing mana since its already rare that I go below 90% mana thanks to the glimmer play style but then the only azerite customisations I have available to pick are different stat priorities and the divine revalations azerite trait which is great for mana but not as good as radiant incandesants for throughput. Finally for minor essence it is pushing me again to go for mana regen over throughput in the form of memory of lucid dreams rather than say vision of perfection for more avenging wrath uptime.

I’ll put my character string at the bottom but all I really need is some more options for customisation - maybe a mana efficiency slider? But considering I have “331 billion combinations” surely I should have more azerite customisation options than just stat priority?

I’m not at my usual PC at the moment so I can’t link my specific character string until I get home tonight but the character in question is Vorto-TheVentureCo EU. Thanks for any help - I just need to bring my A game for mythic

Can you add it ? =D

And for the customization AMR is planning on doing so but the last week were more about “Season 3 gear”.

For the mana, i would go into the log simulation, and see if the spell used seem comparable to what you are expecting.
If it’s not i would try to change the rotation to get more close to what i want to.
Then do a bunch of simulation using combinaison to see if it’s an improvement from the current one or not.
For example: take you current gear and put the gear that seems to you closer to the “top” that you are targetting.
Simulate it and look into the mana section and spells section.

AMR is not perfect but doing so could give so direction for AMR to improve and how =D
@Swol will probably have more info for you about all of this !

P.S: i wich we could have a graph with the mana over the boss in AMR but it’s a bit niche as features.

Thanks for this, I’ll give that a go when I get home from work - i’ll also update with my import code. I think i’ve worked out the key pieces to swap but normally with Mr Robot I can force it to do what I want - since the most useful feature to me is that it can manage all by different specs and keep all my azerite gear in order

I did just have a look at some of the azerite pieces and for instance Mr Robot sees the divine revelations trait as a 2.5% upgrade compared to radiant incandescence (preferred) as a 0.5% upgrade.Similarly Lights Decree is seen as a 0% upgrade.

Does AMR take into account trait stacking vs the value of having just one of a certain trait?

AMR’s handling of the Holy Paladin Glimmer of Light build is very poor. This is because none of the simulator rotation profiles are set up to properly play Glimmer.

In the Glimmer build, the rotation should look like this:

  1. Holy Shock (prefer non-Glimmer/non-Beacon targets, but always cast it, even if you have to heal a Glimmer’d Beacon’d target that isn’t even injured)
  2. Light of Dawn / Crusader Strike (personal preference, depends on nearby ally health and CD status)
  3. Whichever of those 2 you didn’t do
  4. Spending Infusion of Light
  5. Judgment
  6. Other heals

This rotation means that when you have haste cooldowns active (and high haste), your Holy Shock CD can be about 3 seconds or so. You can pump out a dozen Holy Shocks in 30 seconds with this type of build under cooldowns. This transfers -massive- amounts of healing to Glimmer of Light targets and wildly increases the value of Radiant Incandescence.

The current priority for both healing profiles for Paladins is like this:

  1. Light of Dawn
  2. Spending Infusion of Light
  3. Holy Shock (non-Beacon/non-Glimmer only)
  4. Other Heals
  5. Judgment
  6. Crusader Strike

Glimmer is the meta Holy Paladin build right now because its healing potential -obliterates- the old standard healing methods on most fights. A lot of this is because it spends a very, very low amount of mana, which allows you to stack Haste and use The Ever-Rising Tide as a major while still having enough mana to actually finish fights. That’s something no other Haste-stacking healer with The Ever-Rising Tide can claim.

I’d love it if AMR could be updated to play Glimmer properly, as I use it to manage most of my specs for my Paladin. Since Holy is my priority, I have to constantly lock down every Holy piece for Best in Bags before it will stop using my Holy gear for other specs, trying to change those gems/enchants.

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Glad to know i’m not alone with this! And put much more eloquently might I add!

The rotation right now is set up to use Glimmer of Light pretty aggressively - the only big difference is that Light of Dawn is preferred when multiple targets could be healed effectively with it. I can try lowering Light of Dawn in the rotation.

Infusion of Light procs are only prioritized higher than Holy Shock if you’ll waste one by casting Holy Shock before you use it up - I can try allowing the waste of infusion of light procs to see if that increases output or not. I’ll play around with it some.

The fights we use for ranking gear assume you have to do a LOT of healing - which will get into the mana pool of any healer except discipline. Paladins have less problems than other healers with mana, but you can still use up your mana if there is a lot of damage being taken. This is a tough choice for gear optimization, in general: what type of fight should you gear for? A fight where your team is good at the mechanics and doesn’t take a ton of extra damage? Or a fight where you have to work your ass off as a healer to save everyone? I choose the later because once your team turns the corner and gets better at fights, healing gets easier and easier - at that point healing gear can really be picked more on preference than what really pushes the envelope on output.

I’ll mess around with the rotation some and see if I can increase the output of glimmer of light builds even more. They already simulate significantly higher than any other build.

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I took a look at it. I added a couple changes to the rotation that should more aggressively use Holy Shock as much as possible, even if that would mean wasting the heal. This seems to result in a small gain over the current rotation.

It looks like the “big deal” for making mana a non-issue is to heavily prioritize using crusader strike.

I didn’t have Light’s Decree active for Holy and Protection. I changed a filter to let it be active.

I’ll calculate some new data based on the tweaks I made to the rotation.

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As an aside to this conversation:

There’s no reason for anyone to ever think to themselves:

All you had to do was post! Took me less than an hour of work to mess with the rotation and play more like people would expect. Now I can crank out new gearing strategies and the rankings will reflect it. Eventually I might have noticed this myself and updated it, but it will always happen faster if folks discuss it here on our forum where I can check it out.

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You sir, are a legend

Also any idea on when the changes to lights decree will propagate?

I am running a bunch of data we have queued on the global network tonight – ideally it will be done by tomorrow.

Yeah, this is why it’s considered a separate build, but I guess it really doesn’t have to be based on the way you guys set things up. Every Holy Paladin stacks Glimmer of Light, just because the trait is ridiculously strong, as AMR already points out.

The ‘Glimmer build’ is the specific set of talents (Crusader’s Might, Holy Avenger, Divine Purpose), stats (Haste), and essences (Ever-Rising Tide) designed to bring the amount of Holy Shocks you can cast to a ridiculous degree. But as long as AMR treats the ‘Raid Healing’ strategy as playing very aggressively with Crusader Strike and Holy Shock when you have Crusader’s Might and Divine Purpose, that sounds great.

For healers in general, any time you can do a whole fight without coming close to using up your mana, haste is going to be a dominant stat. It’s kind of broken that you can heal so much without using mana as a holy paladin with this build.

I have found with my testing that having divine purpose and crusader’s might is certainly the most healing when stacking glimmer of light as people have figured out, but the “style” of play where you prioritize holy shock over everything whenever it is ready is still optimal even without those talents if you stack glimmer of light. It isn’t really necessary to have those talents to trigger a change to the way you play. Glimmer of Light is so strong on its own that it triggers the rotation change all by itself. Seems like at this point the whole spec is balanced around it.

Could you add a text like that around the rotation in the simulator to explain that if any “divergence” are found in the rotation and what you would expect, please post on the forum so we can improve the simulation ? =D

My character gained over 10% HPS with the new changes on a +2 difficulty simulation of Raid Healing.

However, I noticed a few things that can still be tweaked. First, the value of Radiant Incandescence appears to be wrong somehow. In my actual logs, it does more healing than reported by the simulator. For example, see: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/FqrKJGAQ8ahxpYBN#fight=19&type=healing&source=1
Simulator for me: https://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simulator/report/b37ce27cbae343ef8e447ddca80b0b35

The other thing of note is that the script for the rotations seems to use The Ever-Rising Tide very sparingly (4 times in a 5 minute fight). It should be very aggressive in its use of this essence, at least for people using this build (I don’t know about other healing specializations or builds, but I suspect they also want it used way more than 4 times in a 5 minute fight). I used it 8 times in the log I referenced there (a 6 minute fight with significant downtime sections). The script for Glimmer-based builds should use it nearly on cooldown until it starts to exhaust its mana supply. After dropping below ~8% mana or so (I usually stop at 5% personally, but that seems a bit too low for comfort), it should probably stop using it altogether unless its mana regenerates above that threshold. (I’ve had fun experiences where I’m nearly OOM, surviving off DP procs and the native mana regeneration to trigger Holy Shock exclusively, then I hit Overcharge Mana and regret my life choices, frantically trying to right-click the buff in order to get enough mana to cast a heal.)

You may want to teach the simulator to play better at low mana, as well, skipping out on Flash of Light and/or Holy Light may be worth it below 5-10% mana in order to ensure more Holy Shocks. I’ll play around with this personally later.

Edit: I could be wrong about Radiant Incandescence being off in the simulator. It’s really hard to tell. The average hit is about the same, but my average criticals are almost 25% higher in healing. It’s possible it’s just how I often overlap my major cooldowns with the healing bonus from Overcharge Mana, so it inflates how good it is.

I’m not quite so experienced with the simulator side of things but I still haven’t noticed any changes and I’m still having to do my azerite manually to get away from divine revelations. This is my character string:

78;EU;The Venture 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I looked at radiant incandescence. It was missing multipliers from the core passive and mastery - I’ll update that. Not sure how that slipped through… weird.

The raid healing rotation doesn’t use ever-rising tide on cooldown because it ends up being just as effective in that script to save it for big damage phases. The amount of healing needed between big raid damage isn’t enough to make using it that effective. It still simulates as the best essence by a fair margin. The mythic+ script uses it on cooldown because there is more consistent damage.

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The simulator is updated, but not the gearing strategy yet. Still working on that.

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The reason I think using The Ever-Rising Tide very frequently is helpful is because of the +10% Haste while active that it provides at Rank 3. It knocks my Crusader Strike recharge from 4.9s to 4.4s and my Holy Shock cooldown from 7.3s to 6.6s. It could help push out Glimmer of Light buffs in time for prolonged high damage phases.

It makes sense that that may not translate perfectly into every boss fight though, in a fight with very specific and controlled heavy damage phases that don’t run too long, it probably isn’t worth using it like that.