Best secondary attribute to mage fire are wrong

I have been using Ask Mr. Robot for a long time, but there is a case that I never saw Mr. Robot fix it was the best attribute status of the Fire Wizard.

While the best items are based on mastery => haste => versatility => critical, ASk Mr. Robot keeps asking to focus on criticism => haste => versa => mastery.

And it gets worse when you try to customize so that both corruption and the best items are mastery and acceleration, it seems that the calculation continues to focus on criticism and acceleration.

I try not to compare, but the RaidBots gear hits almost 60k more dps than the one built by Mr. Robot.

Do you have a way to check what I’m telling you?

I have looked into this some.

For fire mages, mastery is the best stat if you are doing a fight with multiple targets that live long enough to take full damage from the ignite you stack up during combustion. If you do a simulation with that type of situation, you’ll see a large damage increase from stacking mastery.

Any other situation - like a single target fight or a multi-target fight where the adds die relatively quickly, mastery will not be the best stat. Our gearing strategies are based off of scripts where adds die relatively quickly, since this is the case for most people playing the game. The only time you see the long-lived adds are in very high mythic+ keys or certain raid bosses like hivemind.

You can use the customization to push it towards the optimization you prefer if you want to gear for those specific situations. If you post your snapshot id (using the help link) I can help you set that up.

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I kept hearing the same thing but the robot disagreed, so I ran some big sims to see.
Like Swol says, mastery is only best* in specific situations.
There seems to be a lot of follow the leader happening and nobody is brave enough to go against the group think providing the Mastery > all mantra.

So if you’ve got enough gear for an AoE set and a ST set I’d go that way.
My main character is a druid so I’m used to having bags full of gear, I’m trying to make a set for Hivemind and high M+ with a crit/haste setup for most other fights.

This… for SOOOOO many things in WoW.
People need to start - or get back to - thinking as individuals because unless you’re a direct clone of whoever’s giving you any advice, it’s only ever going to be that - advice.

@dcamarotto - can you play the same as the source writer - with millisecond accuracy - of whoever is telling you that Mastery is ‘king’…? If not, then why do you ‘believe’ them?


Builds in WoW have always, to some degree (and maybe more now than ever) been largely influenced as much by social factors as actual math.

In this case, I think we see a very good example of how certain builds become popular to the point of being the only build that is considered correct. Fire mages particularly excel at these AoE situations with fairly persistent adds. So much so that if you lean into that and specialize your build for it, you can do ridiculous (and fun) burst damage on certain pulls.

From the perspective of high-end mythic+ and mythic raiding players, the only reason to bring a fire mage (or any spec really) is for what they are particularly good for. Fire mages can make certain pulls in mythic+ possible because of the insane damage. It doesn’t matter if they don’t contribute as much on the boss fights or shorter pulls because you’ll get that from someone else - what matters is that they can make a couple big pulls possible. In mythic raiding, people aren’t struggling that hard to kill most bosses from a dps perspective at this point, and they just want to get ridiculous parses and see how far they can push it. So, it makes sense to heavily specialize the build for those moments where you can be the best at something in the game.

If you are a player looking to play at that level and specialize on those moments where fire mage can do silly things, it makes sense to stack up mastery super hard. If you are a player using a fire mage in more balanced situations and aren’t being brought to a group specifically to do that one job of burst aoe damage every 2 minutes… then you’d probably want to use a build more like what we suggest by default. We think that it makes sense for the generic advice to apply to a generic situation. Specialized advice should be labeled as such and the assumptions required to make that advice “optimal” should be stated.

The customize options allow us to specialize builds - we’re working on some updates for shadowlands that can allow us to provide some customized builds pre-canned for people to choose when situations like this arise. I think that would give people the best of both worlds in the optimizer.


I check in all BEST Mage fire and First world is FULL MASTERY. This Guy simulate single target 117k. Today, may damage with critcal not passe 60k. I make many tests with mastery and, YES, MASTERY >>> VERSA are a good ones. All itens with mastery/haste or mastery/versa are very good. ====> The GUY…

I continue with problems with Ask MR. Robot because it not respect my set without crit. I not have this problem with Raidbots.

Are you able to make a decision for yourself or do you have to have others make that decision for you?
Do you use AMR to tell you that what you see everywhere else is right…?

I don’t think you are using sites like AMR correctly; you seem to want them to tell you what to do rather than use them for recommendations that you factor into a larger knowledge pool to make a decision for yourself. If, as you seem to be saying, you are ‘copying’ what another player says/does, then you need to be a clone of that player to be able to produce their results… or be able to play exactly as the simulator does, to the millisecond, to be able to trust what you see 100%.

My honest recommendation would be for you to walk away from AMR & stick to Raidbots, if you think what you see here is ‘wrong’; only Blizzard has the power to say what is right/wrong about how any given Class &/or spec is to be played… if you are saying that one player has that power, then I’m afraid it is you that has the problem.

If you see what I have written here as confrontational, then I apologise… but to call out the site developers the way you have isn’t the right way to comment in their forum. I also take into account that English may not be your native language, so how you post may not be 100% correct for how you may post in that language.

Good luck in how you go forward from this.

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Ok. But you have fire mage? You see what all guys use? Nobody use another thing. Only full maestry>>versa. If I open case here, is becase any thing is wrong. I focus in maestry and my dps is up. Dude… open your eyes. Read more any see what I tell you. AMR are wrong with status in mage fire.

Then sadly, your experience has been a waste of time.
I would respectfully suggest that you stop telling the site developers how to do their job and if Raidbots are so perfect, ONLY use their advice from here on out.

The premise of a site like AMR is to help you play your characters better, but you seem to ‘know it all’ already.


I think that Swol’s post earlier in this topic covered all the angles quite well – he acknowledges the situations where mastery is quite strong for fire mage and why it is so popular, but also points out where a build more like our default works well.

The customize features were built specifically for cases like this – we encourage people to make use of it.

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It seems like complication comes from that single target gearing strategy is not reflecting all kinds of raid bosses fights. Another thing is that twilight devastation and twisted appendage corruption influences gearing optimization of askmrrobot.

So, my experience in raids is following: on single target with recommended crit-haste approach I got stomped by mastery mages with wrist+font+pvp-trink-on-use. Their damage in combust phase is insane. That is possible since stacking mastery +% from corruption is a thing , and seems like most of the times it works.

In M+ I got recommended twilight devastation items and relatively even distribution between stats (crit is still high). The reliability of that solution is low since you cannot guarantee that you always land those devastations on targets. I tried full mastery approach outside of askmrrobot recommendations and it is better a bit in simc on 3-4 targets and seems like its better in real M+ (while I cannot be assured enough, its difficult to measure statistical significance in that). And it’s more reliable in terms of persieved standart deviation in actual M+.
I got relatively the same (and probably better) recommendations from askmrrobot when I customized multipliers for twilight devastation and twisted appendage reducing them.

But I still got no idea how to overcome overall confusion about the recommended gearing strategy for mages in raids. AskMrRobot was giving right recommendations all the way from WoD expansion up till now. I used to be satisfied with them and now I’m confused.
The question is whether given recommendations converge to the most efficient solution if you follow them all the way about corruption, etc or most efficient solution is only reachable with planning outside of given recommendations. There is an alternative viable gearing strategy - full crit. Maybe given recommendations for single target ocasionally converge there.

The whole situation seems a bit frustrating. I know the correct ways to press buttons and nevertheless couple times in the raid I was told that I’m bad mage since my dps isn’t good enough. And I was using recommended strategy for single target on nzoth encounter for example.

On an encounter like nzoth, you’re going to get a lot of extra damage from ignites spreading around, especially on the meters. It would be interesting to see a damage breakdown on the targets that really matter for beating the fight - I bet it wouldn’t look so bad then.

We are planning out our Shadowlands gearing strategies to make sure that these situations where our calculated solutions diverge from the “meta” are handled much smoother and to people’s satisfaction. No matter what kind of math/analysis is done, sometimes people just want to gear a certain way and feel better doing that. We’re going to make that easier for people to do. We are also going to try to script some more fights in the simulator that reflect the actual fights people are doing. I think we are seeing why doing all simulations on generic single target scripts often diverge from what really works in-game.

Indeed, more fights scripts for gearing strategies would be great.
Your tool works amazing when it gives advice for gearing from the items that I’ve collected and the selected gearing strategy reflects the fight characteristics spectrum (that works well for M+ with multitarget).