It seems that AMR does not show a haste cap for outlaw rogue as guides/discord mention it. For example with my character : 42d2613883244422a41c700cb6f97b32, i have very little haste, but AMR still recommand me Vers/Crit as my best stats.
My calculations aren’t as sensitive to haste as the simulations they are referencing for their advice. It’s hard to say if reaching those haste values they are talking about actually have value in-game.
I don’t see any satisfying explanation for why those haste values matter doing a quick search on them.
I tried a few tweaks to the code to try to make haste rank better… but nothing is getting that result. I’d have to do something fairly drastic to see haste increase in value, which I think would not be the right result.
I would be surprised if 10-20% haste actually matters.
From Ravenholdt Discord :
"Haste has a requirement because Adrenaline Rush lowers your GCD based on haste, capped to 0.8s at 25% haste.
HO builds get +10% haste from Take 'em By Surprise and both builds get +5% haste from Alacrity.
So, HO builds will optimize towards 8-10% unbuffed haste.
KIR builds will optimize towards 18-20% unbuffed haste."
So, I understand that Adrenaline Rush lowers your gcd while it is active, up to a max, and I account for that. That does not necessarily mean it is best to get 25% haste on your gear, it just means that once you get more than that, it becomes less valuable.
My approach to the calculations averages haste, instead of dealing with spikey values due to temporary haste buffs. While bloodlust is active, you will end up with a lot of wasted haste, since bloodlust itself pushes you past this threshold. Doing less damage during your opener (since most fights lust on pull) seems like a pretty significant downside to the gearing strategy they are recommending.
No one gets 100% uptime on Take 'em By Surprise, so I’m not sure why you would want to optimize as if it is up all the time. In most logs I’m seeing 50-60% uptime. I guess you can time up Adrenaline Rush with Vanish most of the time, but low-balling the estimate in my code like I do values haste more than I should, not less.
I’m not expecting to win an argument on this… but I can say that my calculations are quite robust. I went ahead and added a bunch of code right now to specifically try to tip the calculations towards haste on gear. I low-balled take 'em by surprise more. I put in a more generous estimate of how often adrenaline rush will be up, etc. Still doesn’t move the needle on haste. Crit/Vers are just way better stats. You could totally get a top parse with no haste. The haste from alacrity, bloodlust, and take 'em by surprise is plenty.
Thanks for the response ! I was just wondering why it was that way in AMR. And i was afraid to pass on good gear because of that !
I hear that. I’d feel bad if someone passed on gear because of my advice and then felt like they were held back.
After doing this for years and years, the dirty secret is that there are multiple ways to gear and still get very high parses, assuming equal skill levels. The community tends to coalesce around a meta to make people’s lives easy, since there is no simple way to pick gear in this game. It’s safe to gear on-meta. If everyone does it, then we know skill is the differentiating factor.
Most of the time I keep tweaking my calculations until they are close to on-meta. In this case, I’d have to do something really artificial to get some haste into the solution, and then I’m more or less making up numbers.
The other thing you can do is enable the custom stat ratio section of the optimizer to force it to get a little haste.
I play a rogue from time to time. I’d use the default advice and be happy that I have juicy openers, even if I lose like 2% theoretical DPS according to simc over a long fight. That’s just me though.
@Swol There are haste minimum’s for Outlaw to get certain builds to work. AMR avoids haste and solely goes for Vers/Crit on all pieces. However with Fan the Hammer, you need around 6-8% haste unbuffed for the CD reduction on procs. For Keep it Rolling, you need 16-20% in order to get the CD down to around 1.5 mins. These are verified in the Rogue Discord as well as SIMs. If you look at the top 5% of all parses, you will see this reflected in their gearing. In my live testing, I saw around a 20% increase in dps just by replacing my jewelry and gems to add more haste to get close to these caps.
I am not trying to be argumentative here, but I think this warrants another look. Can you check the SIMS again?
This is from the rogue discord:
:kir_rc: KIR builds are more difficult, more punished by downtime, and need 18-20% unbuffed haste compared to :ambush: HO, so you will have to first evaluate your gear and then make a call if the potential dps gain is worth it depending on the encounter.
When I was checking SIMs, VERS/Haste were most important until around 18-20% haste at which time the value of haste dropped like a rock. Mastery is considering a poor stat overall.
KIR stat breakdown
Vers → Haste (<20%) → Crit → Mastery → Haste (>20%)
I posted an update that should try to get to these haste values for the different builds. I tweaked the code for a few talents that can give more adrenaline rush uptime - like subterfuge + underhanded upper hand. You need to get to a certain amount of uptime on adrenaline rush for haste to the cap to be good.
Keep in mind that haste is still a total waste during bloodlust.
Also, I’m still calculating crit to be a bit better than vers, but it is close. The large chunk of crit chance from between the eyes and other sources makes crit on gear a bit less valuable, but then builds with crackshot and improved between the eyes pump the value back up. I think that point for point, crit is a slightly better stat than versatility. I can’t think of an ability breakdown that would make that not true.
Greatly appreciate the changes and look forward to testing.