Threat as a tank

Ask Mr. Robot WoW Classic
1

AMR optimiser allow us to choose between damage or TuF, but since threat cap is an issue in TBC raid, Is it possible to have a Threat or TuF scale.

The damage choice on a paladin protection optimise his dps, but not his holy damage, and only the holy damage from a protection paladin have increased threat, that result in an increase in overall damage but a huge decrease in threat.

Warriors may have the same issue with threat bonus on attacks, and druid have a good part of their threat coming from the heal they give themselves on crits.

2

Almost all the damage you do is holy damage, so I think the DPS optimization is going to be good for threat as well. When I move the slider towards damage, it gets items that I would expect (spell power) to increase the damage done. Auto attacks are really the only significant source of non-holy damage and they are a small amount of the damage done.

3

I was thinking the same thing about not optimizing for threat through holy damage.

Every bis list i have seen shows a fast weapon with +spell power damage for main hand. AMR is not. I am not saying it is wrong. I was just surprised that it did not use the same spell power weapons for bis. LIke every bis pre raid prot palidan list i see has the sword from COT rep as bis.

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4

lower city exalted mace is the bis wpn ive seen on various other sites, its almost like sp isnt counted as high as it as it should be in amr.

your threat comes from seal of righteous, consecration holy shield proc and exorcism on occasion, but they have you stack str agi etc as if white dmg would be higher than the sp dmg items, doesnt make sense to me either

5

I’ll add in the threat multiplier from righteous fury to the calculations. Paladins are a little weird compared to the other tanks since only holy damage gets the threat multiplier. That should push the value of spell power high enough to prefer the spell power weapons.

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6

righteous fury for sure, but also the bonus to the seals and the judgement. Seal of righteousness alone, requires a fast weapon with high + spell.

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7

That is already taken into account implicitly in the calculations. The model figures out how many auto attacks you can do, and thus sotr procs you can get - and also how much damage they do.

I think that people are underestimating how good a weapon like Blackout Truncheon is. It has a good haste proc and a very fast weapon speed. Even once the threat multiplier is factored in on holy damage, not many weapons will beat it out for single target threat. Once we put in the setting for consecration hitting multiple targets, then I think it might fall off a bit. But testing right now on my dev server still shows it as one of the best weapons against a single target, behind only Bloodmaw Magus-Blade or Gladiator’s Gavel.

8

thank you for the responses Swol. Very much appreciated. I would love to ask some detailed questions about how the simulator is determining some of the tanking solutions. It sounds like you have considered most stuff. It just raises questions when AMR shows somethings so far off from what the 'normal" thinking on many other sites are suggesting. One example is the slower weapons that appear higher in the upgrade list for warrior tanking. Normal thought is that faster weapons are going to give more Heroic strike chances. Regardless of dps, some abilities have flat threat values. Like for example, shield bash gives threat but not much dps. So is the simulator calculating threat for tanks or just raw dps?

Other stuff like why is it suggesting +agility enchant instead of Mongoose. The uptime of mongoose has to perform the agility enchant I would think.

I don’t know how much of your simulator inner workings you are comfortable with discussing. Maybe i could pm you instead.?

9

I can discuss anything. It’s not a secret, we just don’t want to dump our code repository on the web.

I can take a look at transitioning warrior from dps to threat. I’m not sure it would end up changing things a lot, but I can give it a look.

I’m working on some tweaks to proc uptime estimates for an update later this week. I’m not sure why people like mongoose so much. On average, it is like 30 agility for a tank (25% uptime for a generous estimate), and it happens randomly. I would think uncontrollable random chunks of stats would be undesirable for a tank.

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thanks. Yeah i wasn’t sure how much you consider proprietary lol.

I am by no means an expert at any of this. That is why i was asking if it was ok to discuss your reasoning or how you calculate to come to the conclusion. I also have thought about the procs of enchants vs lower but consistent values. I prefer savagry enchant on pvp weapons for that very reason. Most of the time i rely on the “experts” and just go with what they recommend. Hence the reason i am using AMR. lol

As for the mongoose enchant, I am taking this straight from Elitist jerks Prot warrior tanking.

"Mongoose Enchant:

Procs “Lightning Speed”:
Increases agi by 120, and increases attack speed by 2% (associative) for 15 seconds.

**If mongoose procs while the “Lightning Speed” is up, it will simply renew the buff to 15 seconds, it will not stack. **

120 agi is:
240 armor (approximately 0.79% relative DR, or ~0.3% raw DR)
3.6% to crit
4.0% to dodge

*A warrior with 60% DR from armor, and 50% avoidance, will see an 8.8% decrease in damage due to the “Lightning Speed” Proc. [(1/(1-0.5))4.0 + 0.79]

**A warrior may assume 1.4 ppm for mongoose for 1.4*15s for 21 seconds of uptime each minute. If this ppm value is incorrect please let me know. **

**This means that a warrior will see on average an 8.8%*21/60 = 3.08% relative increase in damage reduction with the above gear setup. **

According to the threat calculator, a mongoose proc will increase a well geared warrior’s TPS by 39. This correlates to 3960s(21s/60s) for 772 threat per minute or 12.9 TPS. "

it then goes on to talk about exectioner enchant doing even more threat but no

I always question some of the stuff that is stated about Stamina stacking. That debate will go on forever. I see for example some sites say the engineer trinket is BIS because it has like 50 stam. But thats it. I just think if stam is that important that you give up a trinket with other stats on it as well, then why not do the same for rings and necklaces. any piece that doesn’t have armor should be max stamina if you were to follow that same logic. I know stamina is important but damn.

If you are going to mess around with Threat calculations, here is one you could hopefully answer for me. For a warrior Shield Slam is a huge threat increase… Block value adds to the Shield slam. For purely threat, does it make more sense to stack Block value or ST, and crit.
But with that said, I have been trying to figure out which weapon would be best for threat. Latros shifting sword from BM last boss, or Kings defender. Kings defender has more dps and has defense stats on it so i would use for progression or when needing max “toughness”, but Latros sword, has expertise on it. Expertise prevents yellow attacks from dodge/parry. So regardless of weapon damage, I would be getting more Shield slams and revenge to not be dodged/parried. Does this make up for the loss of weapon dps from white swings?

My basic tanking rotation is Sheild slam > Revenge when available, if either of those is on CD, then Devestate. most of the time it goes SS, revenge, devestate, devestate, SS, rev… On most boss fights where rage is basically unlimited.

I know you have other stuff to work on. I would like it if you turned this site into just a tanking app if u would do it. lol

11

Well, I think that mongoose is definitely better than 20 agility - our estimates we are using would lead us to that conclusion as well. I’m not sure why 20 agility is being picked so we’ll figure that out in the update.

I’ll have an update with new threat-based calculations ready in the next day or two so people can play around with that once I post it.

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