Unexpected Stats from Best in Bags

AMR, in all honesty, you really need to work on the Gear Optimizer and Stat Priority. So, I opened the in-game add-on, with my bank open, copied and pasted the information into the website - this is on my Fire Mage, priorities are Intellect - Critical Strike - Master - Versa - Haste - your tool suggested that I stack Versatility/Haste resulting in my primary stat, Critical Strike be dropped to 42 percent from 52 percent. The tool in your website is massively wrong on which stats or gear the toon should equip versus its stat priority. I went back and equipped the gear for Critical Strike, really cannot even use the AMR in-game and Website tools. Its horribly bad based on this example.

kozzie – this post is not related to the stat graph display topic, so I created your own topic to address your question.

Our gear optimizer is able to examine all available stat combinations that you have in your bags, and equip the one that tends to simulate to the highest DPS. Sometimes just “stack my best stat” is not the setup that will give you the most DPS!

What if you have a really good legendary or set bonus, or high ilvl gear, that doesn’t have your best stat? What if a particular set of items that you have works better with a different stat?

The best way for us to help you, would be for you to post the chunk of text you copy from the addon to the website here. Then we can optimize your character with it and see what you see, and give you more information about what is happening. Usually there is a good explanation. If there’s not, we’ll investigate for any possible bugs.

The current default weights for Fire Mages were created with koralon’s burning touch. That legendary item is one of the strongest, but also heavily reduces the value of Crit on your gear.

If you look at the results, you’d actually get higher DPS by reducing crit on your gear in the case the default was created for. If you have different legendary items, you should create a custom gearing strategy based on your gear to use until we fill in the more adaptive gearing strategies.

Here is another post where some people discussed fire mage gearing strategies:

Hey guys,

Thanks for looking into this and commenting. I guess what is confusing is that people understand “Stat Priorities” so, when I look at gear and see - Int/Crit/Mastery - I’m going to equip that gear, reason being is that I understand the concept of Priority. I know this was made into a separate topic, but, I really think the topic correlates to the Graph after the Best in Bags option is completed. People understand “PRIORITY” and when they see a graph, such as in my case, I see Haste, my worse priority stat as the longest graph line, I go, wth, why is AMR suggesting to stack Haste?

I have a screen capture that I am including

So, for me, I see my two worse stats as the suggested gear, but I don’t know why!!!

Well, two things:
1.) For the talents and legendary items the defaults were created for, Haste is not the lowest priority stat, it is the highest. If other theorycrafters have not reported that finding yet, that doesn’t mean it is incorrect. Our data-driven theorycraft approach is particularly good at finding patterns that other sources of theorycraft miss.

2.) If you click on the See Full Stat Details button, you will see this graph:

That graph shows you that there are sets of gear with a lot of crit that fall very close to the theoretically optimal result. Really, that graph shows you that almost ALL combinations of stats are good. There is almost no combination of stats that doesn’t fall within 5% of the optimal simulated result.

This explains to a large degree why other people haven’t found what we’ve found yet: They go into it believing crit is best, and they are most likely biasing their results and getting stuck in a local maximum that is very close, but not completely optimal.

Hi Swol,

I understand what your saying and illustrating, what I am saying is that in general, casual players which likely makes up the demographics are not getting it based on the graph as it is presented. Everything that I’ve reviewed Haste for Fire Mage is still listed as the lowest priority, its all about the Critical Strike to get Hot Streaks. IMO, I would not base any theory of dps using Legendaries, because they are a random drop and not everyone has them. That is different then knowing you can go kill a boss and have the potential of getting a particular piece of gear.

So, what I think I am saying is - the Graph, MUST, show casual players including me, as you say, " ALL combinations of stats are good" using the Best in Bag gear set, then a player should be able to go to the equipment slot, choose another item and see if that graph still shows, “…all good…” if a player chooses to go after that piece of gear.

I would suggest looking at Shadowcraft - specifically made for rogues where it will show a piece of gear improves DPS or does not based on the currently equipped items on that gear. For example, I can go to Shadowcraft, import my toon, and then search a piece of gear and see how that changes my stats and if it improves my dps or not. Right now, the chart is only a chart, it does not explain WHY those pieces were suggested, especially when it goes against the stat priorities.

In a week or so, that graph will automatically adjust to your currently equipped talents, legendary items, and set bonuses. So, the suggestion will not assume anything you don’t currently have available to you. We just have to calculate all that data.

For now we just picked the two most common legendary items in high-parsing mages, just so we’d have something for people while we flesh everything out.

Our system will always show the results that match simulations - there is no way to adjust it to what people “feel” is best based on what is being said out there on the internet. I don’t even really think that it should do that.

If the graphs are confusing to people, we can adjust them, but, when I look at that graph, I see that you could get a lot of crit, a lot of haste, and/or a lot of versatility. It doesn’t make sense to artificially reduce the haste bar on that graph to match expectations instead of simulations, in my opinion.

I’m familiar with Shadowcraft. They use a different approach that allows them to show a DPS number instantly for any set of gear. That method has high precision, but lower accuracy. Simulation has higher accuracy, but lower precision. The suggested gear does show a +DPS % now, which is the same information. You can look at that and see: the suggested gear simulates to X% more DPS, and that is why it is being chosen.

Hey Swol,

In all transparency and disclosure unless things with gear change to a more simplistic model, I’m leaning towards quitting WoW after Legion. Its largely all from the gearing and amount of gear in Legion. Seriously, there is way to many ways to gear - dungeons, LFR’s, Norms, Hero, Mythic, Mythic +, Nethershards for 880 gear, Crafting Legendaries, Obliterum 10/10 and notice in that list, I never said the random Legendary drops, oh, and World Bosses…

At least for this player, its over-the-top and ridiculous. I literally had a friend buy a 100, spend a day leveling, bought enough gear and ran some dungeons, did the Invasions, hit 850, went through Norm EN, Hero EN - used 6 bonus rolls, got 3 more today, sold a wow token for 100k, bought three crafted pieces 8/8 obliterum, got into a Heroic NH and was done with AoTC in 2.5 weeks and is now sitting at 904 on his Mage and bored. Oh, and I have played since launch and at 907.

I just wanted to make some suggestions and hope things will be better, but, I’ll likely be done with WoW unless it drastically changes following Legion. IMO, bring back Guild Achieves, remove the legendary ridiculousness and remove about 4 other ways to gear and get rid of Class Halls, Missions for Followers, and Garrisons, nothing more social then everyone in the city. Oh, I guess Missions are okay. just my opinion. Good Luck.

Obviously its a moot point this time around with the GloNet so close to being established; but for the future I think there needs to be a lesson learned that defaulting to specific legendary items can cause issues for some classes/specs when those items greatly change the gearing strategy.

Perhaps the “interim” (ie, start of a new patch) best in bags should check first to confirm that a player has in his possession the legendary items that were used for creating the strategy. If not, then it might default to a simpler strategy that is less dependent on these items.

This wouldn’t be necessary for every class. Just for specific cases where the chosen legendary has a huge impact on gearing (like fire mages, this time around).

Our previous default strategies assumed no specific legendary item or set bonuses.

The same problem cropped up - this is why we’re doing the whole global network and multiple gearing strategies. It’s not possible to have one “generic” gearing strategy that works.

We made the defaults with the most common set bonus and legendary combos for now because that is what gearing advice on other sites generally matches, so we are fielding less questions while we work on calculating the full solution to the gearing problem.

Just following the conversation, got to thinking about this last night, basically for DPS, people want to know one basic principle, If I farm or go after a certain piece of gear will my dps go up or down based on its stats.

I have the time to delve into the weeds, go through logs and knit-pick everything, but in the end, it comes down to a simple thing with gear and stats priority - does my dps increase? I would also argue that most people in raiding guilds, including semi-hardcore, they look at logs, tell there members - hey, you need to improve your dps and most of them telling their raiders that, have NO clue what improvement it should be other then a general history of what the other members are pulling. In other words, when told “you need to improve your dps”, my response is sure, “by what amount” and it is typically dead silence because they don’t even know.

I think the KISS rule applies to gearing and graphing, Does the piece of gear I am going for increase or decrease my dps if I choose to go after that piece of gear. I say that because in this expansion we had lower ilvl gear that performs better then some higher ilvl pieces, one such piece that comes to mind is Arcano Crystal that drops off of Withered Jim World Boss, that has 4 stat combinations that I still see players using today and is 860.

So, I want to go to a list of gear and say, my dps will increase/decrease if I go after the 880 trinket using Nethershards to replace my 860 Arcano Crystal trinket. With all of the gearing options in Legion, it has become useless to go after a piece of gear that may overall increase dps by 2-5k and require weeks of playing or pugging to get the item. This is the frustration in my opinion that Legion gearing has created.

Also, I must apologize in my opening comments, I was to critical of AMR’s in-game addon and the Best in Bags feature, you guys are doing great work and I apologize for being so harsh.