Vengeance default rotation / updates

Hey hey - So, I wasn’t sure exactly where to put this, and I didn’t see any recent threads that looked like Vengeance-specific rotation stuffs. Basically, I spent a little time and came up with a custom rotation that seems to net me significantly more M+5 sim DPS (~9100 vs ~8300) and TUF rating (~88% vs ~80%) over the current default

It can probably be improved upon, but I figured if there’s already a section where people hash that sort of stuff out, I’d just save it for that.

If you click the “SHARE” link at the top of your rotation and post the link here, then we can look at it and try it out. We’re always interested in seeing other people’s rotation improvements!

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Alrighty - Yeah, will do. It’s just a real rough draft, and I doubt it’s an across the board improvement so much as just a data point of interest. I just figure, if there’s anything useful in there, maybe someone else can take it and run with it.

My character is 344-345 ilevel, just simming for upcoming M+, figured +5 was a good start.

Lots of minor changes in defensive logic can net pretty large variations I imagine, so that part’s no big surprise if I stumbled on something that works for my particular gear in a Mythic+5. But I think I was able to squeeze out more DPS by bumping Infernal Strike up in priority, since it’s off the GCD. And if I’m not mistaken, stacking Sigil of Flame is fine as the DoT is additive to something just under 3x. So. From what I gather, stacking 2 max is optimal… But for ease of play, I just set it to cast whenever I have a spare global regardless of where my stacks are at.

I was also trying to test to see if there was any benefit to using Spirit Bomb for low-health heals on 3+ cleave targets versus Soul Cleave. But I’m not sure that condition came up in the M+ sim log. Anyhow, I suspect there’s some cutoff # of targets where fracture-bomb is more healing than fracture-cleave in a pinch.

Although, I suppose we don’t heal on fire damage anymore like we used to. Forgot about that. So maybe nix the spirit bomb vs soul cleave business. I had also disabled most buffs / foods / pots because I have no idea what I’m bringing to M+, and the consumable are pretty expensive currently. I wanted to keep it pretty barebones, so I just enabled the +5% phys/magic buffs.

Thanks for the posts - I will take a look at this. I tried it real fast on a random character/build and wasn’t seeing the same gains, so there must be something specific about your setup leading to the increase, so I need to spend more time digging into it.

Can you give me an addon export of your character so I can try it with the same gear/talents that you did? Or really just a link to one of your simulation reports would be fine.

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For sure - And again, that’s set for no consumables/flasks/buffs other than the 5% magic/physical debuffs. M+5, just to get some sort of baseline:

(hopefully these links are good - I just went back and commented on skills in the rotation to show my rationale)
My bfa rotation:
Default rotation:

$63;US;Tichondrius;Lamentarï;The Reckless;1;2;120;19;13:120,8:116,15:514,4:87;2;.s1;4;1111211;.s2;5;1213222;.q1;127829s16b719b786b0b3x155848y4z-3821p1512p2016p84q-2100q2016q84r-2090r1815r275;1s17;6627s6b52b1777b199;2581s11b-77b171x-451e5427;23s1b-1819b1819;14256s8b-2080b1787b199;647s13b-2044b1844b275;23s7b-2094b1820b275;5s9b-2105b301b1528b276x0;71s12b-2095b1820b274e0;55s5b-2094b1820b275;1s15b-2105b301b1529b274x5e8;1s10b-2119b1844b275;3s3b-2124b2041b83;160s2b-2119b316b1528b275x-5e4;1891s14b373b13;.q2;154154s8b1713;1730s15b-196b3262b4;2191s2b-3275b3421b1b6;229s3b-3424b3274b33a273790a-9682;49s9b-3307b3267b7e5971;11s1b-3274b3274b33a17406a-17530;761s14;176s6b-3307b3267b7;36s10b-3259b3252b5;1s7b-3272b3267b7;120s12b-4745b1471b3267b7e-30;156s13b-3274b3267b7;37s17b-3274b3267b7e21;459s16b-3269b3262b4b19x154126e3;2438s11b-3290b3266b6e-24;735s5b-3252b3593b13a14518a-11565;.inv;6218;730;1435;9337;2694;799;1064;1;3;1;1041;9148;278;88;1;5844;5965;45;18515;1193;2;22997;10580;12581;2522;3186;147;33;6189;5192b719b786b0b3x155848y4z-3821p1512p2016p84q-2100q2016q84r-2090r1815r275;11;1;803;6;29;153b-787b781b2b4x-14488y13750z738p-2042p1767p199q-1986q1787q199r-2029r1829r276;444;1628;0;1;2671;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;105;3243;718;1086;572;131;761;383;1;1;1;1;1;866;36b-1466b1458b308b1528b237x-451;123;864;860;149;428v110b-2958;3299;89;2;0;1;1;1;0;2;0;1;1;1;0;1;207;47;274;3930;749;29;1;3;0;0;0;2;1;1;0;0;0;0;0;27;1;2;52;0;37;1;206;1;1;146;27;1;63;9;103;64;410;1;2;1;1;5;3;407;1;1;1;1;1;39;1;0;0;557;0;98v10b1070b3111;62;0;3;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;1;2;3;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;6;0;0;0;0;1;0;0;0;1;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;702;7;7;208;15;0;22b-3284b3274b33a280410a-12745;0b-3322b3288b33a5571a1108;21b-3316b3276b3;7b-3284b3288b33a5940;964;1026b-3301b3268;3b-3268b3268;1b-3253b3251b20;28b-3286b3268;3b-3268b3268;1b-3253b3252b19;1b-3271b3608a126a-12745;0b-3623b3268;32b-3268b3268a12715;30b-3268b3268;33b-3253b3252b19;28b-3286b3268a22a-11806;5b-3268b3268;110b-3253b3254b17;2b-3261b3242b19;23;9;1;116b-3306b3288b33;58b-3306b3267b7e5938;2b-3289b3288b33;2b-3306b3267b7;12;369;26;65;25;53;376b-3289b3281b7;6b-3288b3288b33a12918a-12919;1b-3321b3288b33a6755;24b-3321b3288b33a-2114;0b-3321b3288b33;7b-3321b3288b33a5266;0b-3321b3288b33;4b-3321b3288b33a-5519;1b-3321b3288b33;0b-3321b3288b33a2367;4b-3321b3288b33a-1527;122b-3306b3267b7;2b-3274b3267b7e3;160b-3274b3267b7;3b-3274b3267b7;2b-3274b3267b7;331;94;6;0;0;339;0;0;0;0;0;0;1;0;0;0;1;0;0;0;79;106;124;0;0;0;0;0;1;0;0;0;0;0;1;0;0;1;0;0;0;0;23;4;0;288b-3264b3259b21b1;26;1407;55;56;10;3;32b-3286b3268a6606a-16467;100;4;316;0;247b-3268b3608b12a16620a-12147;336;99;64;7$

Also, neither rotation is really giving me a survivability edge using the +0% raid tanking w/ full buffs (like 98% death chance, which maybe seems high but we’ll find out soon enough lol). But I was getting maybe an extra 400 dps with mine over default. Maybe that defaults to mythic difficulty though, which would make more sense.

Ok, had a little more time to look at it. I’ll incorporate some of this into the default rotation.

Almost all of the toughness gain in your rotation is from changing the demon spikes use at max charges to not overlap with metamorphosis or fiery brand. Against the raid tanking script… making that change increases death chance by about the same amount, so, that’s a bit of an oddity. I’m not sure how to make a rotation that performs the same on both scripts yet. It seems like if you are getting hit hard enough to die even with meta or fiery brand up, using demon spikes during them is good, otherwise it is bad. What I ended up with was using Demon Spikes first if you are at max charges, and then delaying meta/brand if you already have demon spikes. This kept the death chance lower on the raid tanking and ended up with only slightly higher death chance on mythic+ (but still an improvement from previous default). I’ll have to think on that one more.

The damage gain was almost all due to your saving soul fragments for spirit bomb when there are multiple targets. Prioritizing Immolation Aura higher also adds some damage. The logic you had was leading to a toughness dip on the raid tanking script, but I was able to slightly modify it to maintain almost all the DPS gain on mythic+ and keep the survival higher on raid tanking also. The change I made was to use Soul Cleave to dump pain if you have high pain when there is a single target, even if you do have soul fragments. Saving the fragments for Spirit Bomb against a single target doesn’t increase your damage much and does less healing than Soul Cleave, which was leading to more death.

Good stuff! Yeah, I had suspected that small changes in DS / Meta / FB usage could affect things in odd ways. It’s one of the reasons I made a note about possibly referencing remaining health % to decide whether or not to overlap defensives, but I haven’t really spent enough time playing around with that. If you’re getting hit hard enough, or if you get hit low enough through one of the other defensive CD’s, it’s probably worth adding a DS to the mix. But that’s just mah Feelcrafts.

Especially since, at least in this case, I’m not running LR. LR tends to smooth over a lot of those sorts of hiccups, but it’s really the one tier of talents where you have some meaningful options. So I’m trying 'em out.

I had a sub 35% health Meta line in there, but I’m not sure how often that’s triggering unless I split it to a different line. Maybe it’s worth trying for any available defensive at that point. Whatever might be off CD just to help stabilize. I often wonder how many of the sim deaths are due to a 1-shot mechanic versus a low-health / unable to stabilize situation.

Anyhow - I appreciate you all taking the time to look at feedback. I’ve been using AMR quite a lot since around the start of Legion. I feel like the site really helped me up my tank DPS, while still not being a total glass cannon. Ended up world #4 on overall warcraftlogs H-Antorus parses (for normal artifacts). I know it’s only tank dps, and it’s only Heroic. But hey. We did a lot of mythic lockout extensions to push our Argus kill. Never got to go back and cheese those. Maybe this tier. We’ll see. :smiley:

Yeah I’m sure there’s more tweaking we could do as the xpac goes on - hit us up if you find more ideas. Once we get the gear ranking stable for Uldir, I can spend a lot more time on stuff like this.

In general in the tank sims I see deaths because health gets low and there just isn’t enough time to get it back up - it’s not usually a massive damage spike, it’s heavy sustained damage that just exhausts all your cooldowns. That’s why talents like Last Resort are so godly for reducing death chance. Anything that is “automatic” when you are low health is just insanely good for keeping you alive. Gives your healers that little bit of extra time when things are really bad.

Vengeance has probably the most finicky tank rotation because you have two resources to manage.

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Hi again! So, I had a little bit of time and took a stab at adding a bit of sub-50% health Demon Spike logic, similar to the SoulCleave business. Looks pretty good for both M+ and Raid, at least at a quick glance. I was also able to lean on more Spirit Bombs for a single target DPS increase, but I honestly don’t remember which edits were relevant there.

I also added a 2nd Immo Aura line for 3+ targets, where you maybe have a chance of 2+ souls from the Fallout talent, leaving standard Immo Aura priority after the 2nd Fracture line for single-target and non-Fallout builds. Soul generation at lower health is important, so as I think you mentioned, that Immo priority was not as good for Single Target.

Let’s see… I was actually really confused by Infernal Strike w/ Abyssal Strike talent. It should be off the GCD and so it could theoretically live at the top of the rotation, but… Anytime I moved it around, I got a noticeable decrease in TUF. I don’t think I saw quite the same thing moving SoF around, and Infernal Strike +talent should be a straight upgrade over hard-casting SoF. So I dunno. Not sure what’s up there.

Anyhow, just for ease of comparison, I left all buffs enabled this time. Hope there’s something useful.

BfA2 Rotation ::

M+7 Results (full buffs) ::
Default ::
BfA2 ::

Raid Tanking (full buffs // -25% multiplier) ::
Default ::
BfA2 ::

Infernal Strike is a movement spell in the simulator, so it has a travel time I think, which is probably why you aren’t seeing it happen instantly. I can try messing with it some… I think we have made some improvements to movement spells since i first implemented it.

Right on - Yeah, I guess I can see how travel time would be an issue when it’s used as intended. But a lot of us end up with @player macros for the ‘rotation’ portion of IS, separate from the movement functionality. I’m not sure how that all would work under the hood. Maybe a separate InfernalStrikePlayer spell that ignores travel time or something?

That’s all out of my wheelhouse though haha - I just like moving some spells around on the rotation editor and seeing what happens :stuck_out_tongue:

For sure - thanks for the links. This is what simulators are for! It’s crazy how touchy Vengeance is to the rotation. I made some more tweaks based on these results - saving that max charge demon spikes for when your health is low seems to make a noticeable difference in survival.

I’m always torn between setting up my sim rotations optimally, and setting them up for ease of execution. I’m a fairly decent Vengeance player, but nailing this rotation and cool-down usage 100% in-game is a pretty big ask. Sure, you eventually learn not to panic and overlap CD’s, or you get your weakauras setup for <50% health and whatever other reminders you need…

But it’s pretty surprising what kind of difference it makes dropping an SoF in the wrong priority, or accidentally capping on pain. I want to say that sort of thing isn’t normally going to make or break your raid night, but I mean… Math is generally better than intuition lol

With tanking especially - your healers can really make up for a decent amount of sub-optimal play.

The simulator is good at telling us what things we can do to give us the highest chance at staying alive, but yeah, there’s a lot of “fuzz” in tanking/healing compared to DPS.