0-Haste Warlock

Each and every one of the guides I’ve read recommends haste for the demo warlock as the most important stat, but Mr-Robot recommends the opposite, in fact, the M+ BIS gear has 0 haste, completely different from the BIS from wowhead, icy-veins, method.gg, etc.


each and every other guide use the same simulation program to come up with their stats whereas amr does not. Haste being desired is a simple “get better dps” but doesn’t give you the best dps except in very specific aoe situations. It also quickly reaches diminishing returns(or the reduction in effective gains to dps after certain points are reached)

Also another factor you should consider is your tier set. It’s going to make your demon bolt, felstorm, and hand of guldan fantastic. While haste may sound good for more attacks remember this. the more haste you have the faster your imps go away since they are capped at 10 fireballs and then dissappear. Theoretically your increased haste should replenish them, but the numbers crunch to saying that by having low haste you are maximizing your imp up time which will fuel your demonbolt, and with the mastery pump, your imps may be hitting slower, but they will be banging those fireballs. so overall combination you would gain more effective dps with crit/mastery/versa over haste. But that’s assuming you have the tier set. if you don’t have tier, you will find that haste comes out slightly ahead in most situations.

Mr-Robot cannot take into account the tier bonus when look for a BIS gear from m+, it recommends equipment with 0 haste WITHOUT the tier bonus. I understand that haste, based on the Mr Robot simulations, is a less desirable stat than others, but that its optimal value is 0 is a bit weird? Regarding the diminishing return of haste, the mastery, with the recommendation of Mr-Robot would be at 51% with a diminishing return of 30%, according to wowhead.

Did you take the implosion talent? If you took implosion it’s likely the stat weights would change to avoid haste as you are planning on burst dmg to carry your dps. Implosion requires 0 haste to pull some insane numbers with, combined with hog and demonbolt you literally are doing a massive ton of damage. demonbolt > hog> implosion. less reliance on haste as you aren’t spamming for procs here much.
but yeah, If you feel the need to allocate more haste though, you can always hit the customize button and then secondary stats and allocate what you want.

If you post a snapshot, we can look at your particular case too – one of the big differences between our site and e.g. a wowhead guide is that the advice is tailored to each specific case, so sometimes you can get a “counterintuitive” result that works well.

Or who knows, maybe you hit some wacky edge case that needs tweaking! Follow instructions below and someone can take a closer look:


That’s the id, thanks in advance

Catching up on forum stuff after the holidays

I’m looking at this case in particular, because it’s an interesting one. It seems like zero haste is a pretty extreme solution, even if haste is less valuable than some other stats.

I see a couple of things going on:
1.) With the gear available, it is possible to heavily favor two stats at the total exclusion of the other two. So, any calculation that finds crit/mastery to be stronger stats will be able to push you into gear that gets almost exclusively those stats when any item in the game is considered. In the past, this wasn’t possible so you’d always see some of every stat.

2.) My calculations do find haste to be less valuable than crit and mastery - but not by a lot. Forcing haste onto the gear is only reducing the score by something in the range of 2%. I’m sure that simc is finding haste to be slightly better, and thus all the other guides are saying haste is the best so stack haste. But my calcs show crit/mastery to be slightly better so the optimizer is saying to stack crit/mastery.

There isn’t much of a downside to stacking haste, crit, and/or mastery on your gear. I’m trying to figure out what it is that is making the other guides out there like haste so much… I haven’t quite found it yet. I’m not sure exactly what I could do to the calculations to make them favor haste that much.

A big chunk of your soul shard generation comes from demonbolts that are a result of dreadstalkers giving demonic core charges - more than half. The rate you get those is unaffected by haste (dreadstalker cooldown is not affected by haste). So, to me, that is a significant hit against the value of haste. It makes mathematical sense for haste to be a weaker scaling stat.

More haste could give more value to grand warlock’s design, but it actually has a surprisingly small effect. Wild Imps don’t do more damage with more haste, either (but you can summon more imps total) - more haste in AoE might actually make it harder to get big implosions and implode every imp. Imps only cast 6 felfire bolts before they despawn, and their cast time is affected by haste. Ideally you want to be casting implosion less often than you cast hand of gul’dan - every other hand would be great if possible to reduce gcds spent casting implosion.

I’ll keep an eye on it, but going through my calculations, nothing is jumping out at me right now that I could change to skew the results toward haste. I think what I’d have to do is somehow make mastery less valuable.

Also, the warlock set bonus proc rates are not available in the spell data. Simc is using a guess and I’m using the same value they are for consistency right now, until we can figure out what it is.