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82

So I’ve tested both fast and slow main hand weapons. Here are the results.

Fast MH gear (+6.48% best in bags, sub-optimal)

Snapshot ID: b3d9009e7af143de919a277a5143c3bd

$11;EU;Пламегор;Баарсик;Лунный Тигр;5;1;80;-932:42350,-529:2477,-1094:9252,-933:3861,-942:25703,-1050:32876,-989:18866,12:200,-1037:18504,-1105:13434,-1091:42999,-1119:8435,6:441,-1126:11917,-47:3475,-270:983,-1098:21478,-72:5460,-1104:-42000,-470:500,-1031:0,-934:-42000,-1073:15334,-59:0,-1012:7929,-1011:275,-946:825,-369:500,-930:3367,-21:500,-54:3467,-69:3467,-1077:7407,-935:8999,11:440,-909:385,-749:16,-609:0,-730:28134,-890:0,-990:8712,13:8,-967:15216,-1068:10704,-1106:23980,-1090:42999;1;.s1;ROGUE;00530300535210052010333105100500500300000000000000000005020000000000000000000000000;.q1;34448s9x40003e3845;127s8x-4e-239;2616s18;451s12;25s17e183;189s16e-1116;1702s5x0y35e579;2s10x-20e352;1026s11;92s2;6s13;10s6x-15y0;1856s1x1399y-1340e213;856s15e-212;75s3e-619;698s7x-59e837;74s14;.inv;2277;1498;464;18;803;177;739;243;37;74;38;3508f217;159;463;12501;6736;2807;905;23;582;506x40003y-93;164;0;40;0;0;99;172x-5690y-2008e3003;1e9;2149;510;7;2;2;1;124;12;22;370;425;1023;9;420;101;0;561;0;0;0;0;347;0;0;0;0;46;392;27;1057;0;0;0;0;0;0;139;298;11;13;53;76;2;2;2;275;110;0;2755;358;764;1551;135821;13776;.gly;63268;58038;63249;58027;63256$

Slow MH gear (+0.00% best in bags, best)

Snapshot ID: 70fcc74e24c046109182b60efb9f8679

$11;EU;Пламегор;Баарсик;Лунный Тигр;5;1;80;-932:42350,-529:2477,-1094:9252,-933:3861,-942:25703,-1050:32876,-989:18866,12:200,-1037:18504,-1105:13434,-1091:42999,-1119:8435,6:441,-1126:11917,-47:3475,-270:983,-1098:21478,-72:5460,-1104:-42000,-470:500,-1031:0,-934:-42000,-1073:15334,-59:0,-1012:7929,-1011:275,-946:825,-369:500,-930:3367,-21:500,-54:3467,-69:3467,-1077:7407,-935:8999,11:440,-909:385,-749:16,-609:0,-730:28134,-890:0,-990:8712,13:8,-967:15216,-1068:10704,-1106:23980,-1090:42999;1;.s1;ROGUE;00530300535210052010333105100500500300000000000000000005020000000000000000000000000;.q1;34448s9x40003e3845;127s8x-4e-239;2616s18;451s12;25s16e183;189s17e-1116;1702s5x0y35e579;2s10x-20e352;1026s11;92s2;6s13;10s6x-15y0;1856s1x1399y-1340e213;856s15e-212;75s3e-619;698s7x-59e837;74s14;.inv;2277;1498;464;18;803;177;739;243;37;74;38;3508f217;159;463;12501;6736;2807;905;23;582;506x40003y-93;164;0;40;0;0;99;172x-5690y-2008e3003;1e9;2149;510;7;2;2;1;124;12;22;370;425;1023;9;420;101;0;561;0;0;0;0;347;0;0;0;0;46;392;27;1057;0;0;0;0;0;0;139;298;11;13;53;76;2;2;2;275;110;0;2755;358;764;1551;135821;13776;.gly;63268;58038;63249;58027;63256$

Description

This is a series of 3 tests, dedicated to identify the damage difference between using slow main hand for assasination rogue as per Ask Mr. Robot suggestion and using fast main hand as per guides, mostly popularized by Simonize.

Expected results

Slow main hand should result in 106.48% damage compared to fast main hand.

Methodology

  1. Deadly Poison IX is applied to a faster weapon.
  2. Instant Poison IX is applied to a slower weapon.
  3. Target is Heroic Training Dummy (31146).
  4. No buffs applied.
  5. No consumables used.
  6. Player engages in combat with the following sequence of spells: Garrote, Slice and Dice, Hunger For Blood, Mutilate, Envenom (when Slice and Dice buff is about to fall off).
  7. Regular rotation
    1. Mutilate if combat points are below 4 and Hunger for Blood is not close to disappearing.
    2. Mutilate if no combat points.
    3. Rupture if Hunger for Blood is below 8.5 seconds and target has no bleeding effects.
    4. Hunger for Blood if Hunger for Blood is below 8.5 seconds.
    5. Cold Blood before casting Envenom (macro).
    6. Envenom at 90-95 energy.
  8. Vanish is used at exactly 3 minutes after the opening.
  9. Player logs out after leaving combat.
  10. Engineering enchants are not activated.

Actual results

Slow main hand results in 95.71% damage compared to fast main hand.

Slow MH DPS:

  1. 2966
  2. 3036
  3. 3113

Fast MH DPS:

  1. 3309
  2. 3103
  3. 3112

Average slow MH dps: 3038

Average fast MH dps: 3174

Additional info

Separate Logs (Google Drive, .zip archive)

Note: Cold Blood coldown was not managed as per the methodology. It was not guaranteed to be off cooldown on combat start. It may have had negative impact on the overall results.

83

I was holding off on adding a Badge upgrade finder search because Blizzard mentioned changing how that works. It seems like everything will be “as normal” for phase 1, so we can add a badge search.

Which TBC enchants in particular would you like to see? We do have Mongoose because it is still popular in end game.

84

Mainly the shoulder and head enchants as the new ones aren’t available until you get the reputation.

85

Shoulder and head enchants are also a good way to calculate character power until player has sufficient reputation to get wotlk enchants.

86

I posted an update that fixes several issues reported by users, and also added an Emblem Upgrade Finder search for items that can be purchased with Emblems of Heroism or Emblems of Valor. I also added TBC head/shoulder enchants to the lists of available enchants.

We should have another update later today and a third update tomorrow to finish updating the rankings for the remaining specs – we’ll make a post with each of those updates.

1 Like
87

Hey @yellowfive, I’ve found a couple of errors with the items:

  1. Wraith Strike seems to be missing from the loot tables – edit: it looks like caster weapons in general are missing from the loot table. Enh shamans can make use of weapons like Wrath Strike and Titansteel Spellblade. :slight_smile:
  2. Gloves of Calculated Risk have a socket, but shouldn’t

So far the BiS generated by AMR is very different from the recommendations from the enh shaman discord, but it still sims very closely. It’s interesting to see.

Thanks!

88

I can add caster weapons to the lists for enhancement.

Can you provide me a snapshot where that item is showing a socket but shouldn’t? It should only show the socket if you are a blacksmith.

89

When I do best in slot it seems to think I have BS, LW (I do actually have engi, JC)

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Can you add caster items in general, not just weapons? There are some BiS neck/cloak/trinket options that are in that category as well.

90

Could you provide a snapshot where it thinks you have the wrong professions? Press the “help” link next to the big “Best in Slot” section header, then Create Support Post, and copy the generated snapshot ID here.

Yeah I could probably add some more caster item options for enhancement.

91

ah sorry, I didn’t know about the snapshot feature:

b31394f6316c4de8b84aad33a31fb5e1

92

I think this is going to be a running theme with the optimizer - we are using a formula-based model of the game that should very closely pick optimal gear. And, in general, the difference between two close sets of gear is very small. Enhance in particular is going to have a very small dps gap between wildly different sets of gear because they use so much spell and melee damage. You can really push the gear either way and get very similar total DPS numbers.

93

Looks like some enchants got in the list that never made it into the game. I think it’s awesome that blizzard faithfully copied even the items that don’t exist!

We posted an update that should fix the issue you were seeing with blacksmithing sockets showing up when not a blacksmith.

We also updated warrior rankings, almost done with all the specs!

94

Protection warrior: the item Unsmashable Heavy Band is missing 81 block value in the optimizer that is present on the ring in game. And the optimizer is recommending Arcanum of the Stalwart defender for legs (it’s a helm only enchant.) fc559e15492d4bd3b65e191bf1b5aa65

95

This might not be a super high priority, but there doesn’t seem to be a way to generate a pre-raid BiS list. When I go to Best in Slot, no matter what selections I make, I get raid gear in Phase 1.

96

Yeah… that’s because the “default” character has phase 1 gear on already, which is the “starting point” for the optimization. If you loaded up a character with bad gear, you could get a pre-raid BiS list for it.

1 Like
97

The block is there, it just renders differently (it’s above the other stats). I can change it to render as a “bonus” stat when not on a shield.

I’ll adjust those arcanums, they got accidentally picked up by some parsing code for TBC arcanums that set the available slots.

We also published updated rankings for paladins! Tomorrow morning we should be able to finish balance druids, and then all specs will be complete.

98

@yellowfive @Swol has this been useful? I still see that the recommendation for rogues is to use slow MH.

The weapon with Instant Poison can be fast or slow and you usually just pick the highest DPS option you have regardless of speed. IP works differently than DP - IP has a higher chance to trigger per hit on a slower weapon and a lower chance to trigger per hit on a faster weapon. This means that the number of triggers you get from auto attacks is going to be the same no matter the weapon speed.

  • A slower weapon for IP means you’ll get more IP triggers from abilities like Mutilate. Roughly the same number of Mutilate casts regardless of weapon speed, but slower weapon gives higher chance to trigger IP per cast of Mutilate → more IP triggers total.
  • A slower weapon has higher physical damage per hit which increases the physical damage per cast of Mutilate slightly.
  • A faster weapon results in more triggers of Focused Attacks talent, giving very slightly more energy and very slightly more ability casts.

The first consideration for which dagger goes in which hand has to do with the poisons. No matter what weapon speeds the poisons are applied to for an Assassination rogue, Deadly Poison will have a higher chance to trigger per hit than Instant Poison. This means you will get more DP triggers by putting the DP weapon in your mainhand because Envenom gives a chance to trigger the mainhand poison and Mutilate gives two chances to trigger the mainhand poison, only one chance to trigger the offhand poison.

In a situation like a boss enemy where Deadly Poison stacks up to 5 and you keep attacking the same target, you have a decent boost to your total poison damage by putting the DP weapon in the mainhand. If you are fighting trash and frequently attacking a target without 5 stacks of DP, its not so good to have DP in the mainhand. In this situation you would prefer your Instant Poison weapon to be in the mainhand for upfront damage.

If your Instant Poison weapon is slower and/or has higher weapon DPS than your Deadly Poison weapon, putting the Instant Poison weapon in the mainhand will increase auto attack physical DPS and/or also Mutilate physical damage per cast. This is because the offhand weapon gets a inherent -50% damage penalty, and even after your +50% Dual Wield Specialization talent the offhand weapon is still suffering -25% damage compared to the mainhand.

In most circumstances, the poison benefit of the Deadly Poison weapon in the mainhand outweighs the physical damage loss of having a potentially slower/higher DPS weapon in the offhand. If your two daggers are extremely far apart in weapon DPS, then the physical damage difference may be more significant and you would just keep the high DPS weapon in the mainhand all the time. An example of this would be Sinister Revenge + Librarian’s Paper Cutter. With this setup you would want to use SR + IP in the MH and LPC + DP in the OH all the time because of the vast DPS difference between SR and LPC.

99

Tanking Druid Item weights do not appear to take into account the changes to druid talents vs armor on items.
Only Cloth and Leather items receive our armor bonus.
It appears as though rings, trinkets and weapons (with armor on them) are over-valued.
See Enraged Feral Staff vs Staff of Trickery
Trickery is clearly better, but Enraged Feral Staff is ranked higher.

100

The issue with armor for feral druid was fixed a few days ago. Can you provide me a snapshot where that weapon is ranked higher? I do not see that happening when I run it. You can press “help” next to any of the big section headers like “Best in Bags”, then Create Support Post, then copy the generated snapshot ID here.

@baarsik I can have Swol take a closer look for you.

1 Like
101

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